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« "Faithful" To What? | Main | Orthodox Displeased That Pope Discarded "Patriarch of the West" Title »

Tuesday, June 13, 2006

Comments

Richard

Why does the first cartoon have the bishop holding the "USCCB Liturgical Norms" when those norms are entirely at odds with what he said?

Beelne

you should be more well read.

 Mark

The USCCB voted to add the phrase,"unless the diocesan bishop determines otherwise", to the United States adaptation of the GIRM.

It was due to the addition of that phrase to the United States adaptation of the GIRM that Bishop Brown has claimed that he has the authority to rigidly enforce that Catholics stand after the Agnus Dei.

Fr. Tran, the parish administrtor at St. Mary's by the Sea, told the memebrs of Restore The Sacred that they were in defiance of the USCCB and the Holy See because they continued to kneel after the Agnus Dei. He has said this from the pulpit, and in writing, in the letters inviting these Catholics to leave the parish and the Diocese of Orange, and in the parish bulletin.

Bishop Brown's spokespeople have said that the diocese stands behind Fr. Tran, both in the Los Angeles Times article and on the Diocese of Orange website.

Therefore, although the norm is, in fact, Bishop Brown's personal preference, imposed arbitrarily on the Diocese of Orange (whereas the majority of dioceses in the U.S. continue to kneel after the Agnus Dei) Bishop Brown is shifting the blame for his new norm to the USCCB and even the Holy See (because the Holy See approved the adaptation which stated "unless the diocesan bishop determines otherwise").

That is why Bishop Brown is depicted holding the "USCCB Liturgical Norms".

Joseph D'Hippolito

I hope Brown is satisfied. Because of his little power-play, he has made himself -- and the Church -- a total laughingstock.

The cartoon having Brown lecture Christ on mortal sin is just too precious!

However, when that face-to-face conversation actually takes place (and it will, boys and girls), Christ will do most of the talking -- and likely dispatch Brown to a place he never expected.

Kevin in Dallas

Joseph: An I suspect that it will be Bishop Brown the one on his knees.

Dubliner

What a strange God - despatching Bishops to Hellfire for trivial nonsense - I don't think soooo. You people have lost perspective on this issue because it is not about kneeling at all. It's a power struggle - The Ultra Orthodox faithful Versus the wooly headed liberals. I think God will simply laugh and wonder why the energy wasted on this nonsense wasn't put into the care of the suffering and the poor. It really is nonsense......
Thank God I don't live in the USA ! I think I'd join the Mormons or something.....

 Mark Hillingsworth

There goes Godfrey and Ethan, the mini minions of distraction. Catholics were never worried about you because you might as well be Mormon already. My apologies to Brigham Young. The problem with our Diocese is the drip by drip eradication of Doctrine and kneeling serves the purpose of the homosexual agenda to bring um young! Only a Dubliner would consider the right to Adore God a trivial matter. Pope Benedict did not when he wrote in " The Spirit of the Liturgy" the story about the devil having no knees. Your trivializing Adoration of
God leads one to ask, "Godfrey do you have knees?"

 Georgia

Trivial nonsense! That response Dubliner is pure nonsense. How unbecoming of an Irishman to disparage kneeling!

Kevin in Dallas

Dubliner seems unable to make a comment on the Blog without "slamming" the U.S. in some way. I'm not really suprised. Many who live on the other side of the Atlantic are very unhappy about circumstances in their home country and rather than change it, they put down the U.S. I'm just thankful that my ancestors had the intelligence to leave Ireland during the Potato Famine. It appears the all that is left on the Island is a bunch of lemmings who whine as they go over the cliff.

vincero

Don't be so tough on Dubliner. What he's doing is sorta like shouting "shalom" at a 1930's bund meeting, or sticking a twig into a fire ant hill just to see what happens. ;^)

Dubliner

Now the bund meeting analogy I like - the attitudes here are as blind and inflexible as the Nazis, and the vitriolic rehetoric against the Bishops worthy of a Nurenburg rally speech of Mein Fuhrer, against the jews.
I am really really glad I don't live in that crazy society. Here we respect one another and especially our bishops.
Shalom.........

Milly Millstone

Such a great likeness of the bishop. I wonder if he's seen it yet.

Joseph D'Hippolito

However, when that face-to-face conversation actually takes place (and it will, boys and girls), Christ will do most of the talking -- and likely dispatch Brown to a place he never expected.

Dubliner, you miss the point (perhaps accidently, probably willfully). The point is that Brown is substituting himself as his power for God, in terms of appropriate reverence due. That might not get him dispatched to Hell. That could, OTOH, get him a longer stay in Purgatory than he thought.

Here we respect one another and especially our bishops.

Dubliner, do you Irish respect even those bishops who are nothing but self-seeking bureaucrats that use episcopal authority for selfish ends? Are you Irish so dense as to give those Irish bishops who looked the other way during the clerical sex-abuse crisis and the Magdalen "Laundries" controversy the same respect that truly holy men deserve? Are you so lacking in discernment that you can't tell the difference?

Leo Wong

Here we respect one another and especially our bishops.

A beautiful example of this is The Friends of St. Colman's Cathedral.

Consanescerion

ooh... is that an eerie silence I hear from Dubliner? Dubliner... were you rooting for that historic cathedral to be wreckovated? Are you disappointed in its preservation?

Dubliner

Now the case you raise about St.Colman's Cathedral is indeed an interesting one. The Bishop in question is John Magee former personal Secretary to Pope John Paul II.
The anti change lobby here is made of of non-practicing anti-church people who wre anxious to demonstrate people power over and above the Bishop's Authority.
What was proposed in the Cathedral was a mild reoredering of the sanctuary to conform to the norms of Vatican II.

The Bishop's Letter to the people of the Diocese follows.

Letter to the Priests, Religious and Lay Faithful of the Diocese of Cloyne
Re. Re-ordering of St. Colman's Cathedral, Cobh.
Wednesday, July 06, 2005

My dear People of God,

In 1992, when we undertook the restoration of St. Colman's Cathedral, we distributed a brochure to every home in the Diocese which described the work to be undertaken and the manner in which it would be phased. You may recall that we announced then that the last phase of the work would be the re-ordering of the Sanctuary area. The response from you, the People of the Diocese, was very generous and now, as a result, much of the work of restoration has been completed and the Cathedral has been secured for the foreseeable future.

The task of re-ordering the Sanctuary, in accordance with the mind of the Church and the spirit of the Second Vatican Council, still remains to be undertaken. This is necessary to enable the congregation to have full and active participation in the Liturgy. In 1998 we announced our intention of undertaking this work and we held meetings to explain what was involved. Since then various committees have been formed with expertise in Liturgy, Architecture and the Arts to advise how best to proceed. The firm of Professor Cathal O'Neill and Associates was commissioned to design the re-ordering of the Sanctuary and the design for the re-ordering is now complete and ready to be submitted to the Planning Authority.

The design was submitted by me to the relevant Congregation in Rome and received its approval. In the letter of approval the Cardinal Prefect states: "The plans seem in fact to ensure adequate space for the celebration and to make the sanctuary visually more accessible to the faithful". The letter of approval concludes, as follows: "the Congregation wishes to congratulate Your Excellency once more on the zeal shown by many in the drafting of this project and from its point of view considers the question now closed".

I am now happy to present to the People of the Diocese this design. Once the Planning Application has been submitted the normal process of public consultation will then begin. To facilitate those who may wish to view the design and have it explained to them in detail, information meetings are being arranged so that they may have an opportunity to speak personally with members of the design team. The venues, dates and times for these meetings will be announced next Sunday.

I therefore confide this project into the Hands of God, for whose Glory we have
engaged in this work, and I look forward to its successful conclusion.

Sincerely in Christ,

+ John Magee


Bishop of Cloyne.

You will note especially Rome's approval fo the scheme.
Unfortunately there are church bashers in Ireland - mostly disaffected Catholics who no longer practice and who wish to humiliate the Church in every possible way. They successfully blocked the work at St.Colmans through the Planning board - but the day is not fully lost - the Bishop has recourse to the Supreme Court for a judgment.
The essential difference in this case is that the bishop bashers are overtly enemies of the church unlike the wolves in sheeps clothing who tear at the Bishop of Orange and Cardinal Mahoney. I suggest that the Irish enemies are more honest!

G.M. Knowles

Thank you Dubliner, for a more objective perspective.

Just one thing, I would not want to be in the Parish where this is taking place.

Being uncomfortable at Mass because of this is the result for those Parishioners.

Joseph D'Hippolito

So, Dubliner, being a Catholic means following men over following Christ -- even if those men abuse their authority under the guise of "apostolic succession," even if they come from Rome itself?

Do you realize that the Vatican II "norms" for church renovation include removing the sanctuary from the central place of worship -- the sanctuary that contains the body and blood of Christ, Whom we worship?

Do you realize that those "disaffected" Catholics who "no longer practice" perhaps do not want to return to a Church whose theology they barely recognize?

Dubliner

Joseph, you reveal your true nature in your use of vulgar language. Sadly this is what lies at the heart of the "we know better than the Bishops we don't like mob"
If you reject Vatican II I suggest you set up a looney church for likeminded bigots and leave obedient Catholics to live in harmony under our Bishops.
The paucity of you reasoning is all too clear when you resort to such vulgar and disgusting terminology.
I will pray for you; but I doubt that the armor of prejudice will be pierced even through the power of prayer.
Go on tearing pieces out of the Bishops you don't like - it's a real service to the Christian Community - at least in your warped mentality.
The tone and tenor of all your postings is bitter, superior and judgmental - I suspect Joseph that you are not a nice person, and I thank the Lord that 3,00 miles of the Atlantic seperates me from you and your likes.

Joseph D'Hippolito

As far as Vatican II is concerned, how do you or anybody justify the removal of the tabernacle from its rightful place in the sanctuary?

If the "paucity of my reasoning is all too clear," Dubliner, on what do you base your reasoning, outside of a superficial, herd-like interpretation of "apostolic succession"?

You know, Dubliner, you remind me of the people who cheered the naked emperor's "clothes" in Hans Christian Andersen's work, "The Emperor's New Clothes." They cheered because they were expected to cheer. Only the little boy, whose observations weren't diluted with prejudices and false expectations, told the truth.

I'll take that little boy over the crowd any day of the week. We all know where you fit in that analogy.

Dubliner

I have no wish to engage further with a foul mouthed thug.

Leo Wong

What was proposed in the Cathedral was a mild reordering of the sanctuary to conform to the norms of Vatican II.

From the An Board Pleanala, 1 June 2006, refusing permission to reorder the interior of St. Colman's Cathedral:


PROPOSED DEVELOPMENT: To carry out a reordering of the interior of Saint Colman’s Cathedral. The proposed reordering, which is designed to meet the liturgical requirements of the cathedral as a place of worship, will include: (a) extending the sanctuary area into the nave; (b) removing and partially relocating the existing altar rails; (c) creating a permanent altar on the extended sanctuary; (d) providing a new cathedra facing the congregation; (e) locating the vesting sacristy at the base of the tower; (f) converting the Pieta Chapel to a mortuary chapel; and (g) reducing the area of the predella of the Altar of the Crucifixion in the south transept and the Altar of the Holy Family in the north transept. The extension of the sanctuary and the moving of the altar rails will involve lifting and relaying portions of the mosaic to the nave and sanctuary and providing additional mosaic to match the existing as required, all at Saint Colman’s Cathedral, Cathedral Place, Cobh, County Cork. The cathedral is listed for protection in Cobh Town Council’s Record of Protected Structures.

From the "Reasons and Considerations" section:


Having regard to the extent of the interventions proposed, it is considered that the proposed re-ordering of the interior would materially and adversely affect the character of the cathedral and would, therefore, be contrary to the proper planning and sustainable development of the area, including protection of its architectural heritage.

The FOSCC appeal was supported by, among others, An Taisce, the Irish Georgian Society, the Pugin Society, Alan Robert Kershaw R.R.Adv, Dom Alcuin Reid OSB, and the Rev. Fr. Gabriel Burke CC.


You will note especially Rome's approval of the scheme.

Rome did not approve the scheme. Bishop Magee's letter quoting Cardinal Arinze's letter did not include the Cardinal's statement that, "It is the view of the Congregation that these matters are best handled at the local level by the diocesan bishop and therefore does not wish to take a position regarding the details of the project." The letters of Bishop Magee and Cardinal Arinze are reprinted in the Friend's Conserving Cobh Catheral: The Case Stated.


Unfortunately there are church bashers in Ireland - mostly disaffected Catholics who no longer practice and who wish to humiliate the Church in every possible way.

From FOSCC's circular letter to the clergy of the diocese of Cloyne, 31 August 2005:


I wish to assure you that the Friends of St. Colman's Cathedral are all practicing Catholics who love the Church and hold our priests in high esteem. For this reason, it grieves us to be considered somehow in opposition to the clergy. This is certainly not our intention. However, our pride in Cobh Cathedral and our love for the church in which we have prayed all our lives motivates us to make our voices heard in regard to matters which affect us deeply.

The anti-change lobby here is made of of non-practicing anti-church people who were anxious to demonstrate people power over and above the Bishop's Authority.

From the submission of Mrs Terry Pender, secretary of FOSCC, at the An Board Pleanala Oral Hearing of the appeal against the planning permission granted to the Trustees of St. Colman's Cathedral for the re-ordering of the interior of the Cathedral, 28 February - 2 March 2006:


Membership by Catholics does not relieve them of their obligations to obey the authority of the Catholic Church in those areas in which obedience can lawfully be claimed by those who legitimately hold and exercise such authority. Indeed, the Friends support and promote lawful ecclesiastical authority, properly consituted and exercised. Indeed, this is one of the principles underlying our position with regard to the liturgical arrangements of the Cathedral.

The essential difference in this case is that the bishop bashers are overtly enemies of the church unlike the wolves in sheep's clothing who tear at the Bishop of Orange and Cardinal Mahony. I suggest that the Irish enemies are more honest!

Posted by: Dubliner | Thursday, June 15, 2006 at 01:45 AM

Joseph D'Hippolito

I have no wish to engage further with a foul mouthed thug.

Translation: When I'm shown to be wrong, I become a coward.

Beeline

Hey Joseph D'Hippolito,
your discourse to Dubliner in the last two
instances just plain stinks.This place is about logical discourse not painting, and you did some pretty broad brush strokes on him twice now.

The issue is Liturgical freedom vs. obeying the Bishop. Its not about those who argue for obeying the Bishop being weak or ignorant people.
You stink!

Joseph D'Hippolito

Beeline, you are entitled to your opinion about me. However, how would you describe somebody who advocates blind obedience to any authority figure, episcopal or otherwise, regardless of how that figure uses (or misuses) his authority -- especially if that somebody has never bothered to visit the dioceses about which he is talking??

I live in the Diocese of Orange, Beeline. Not only Brown but Mahony (in neighboring L.A.) are quite familiar to Catholics in this area. I know what I'm talking about. Does Dubliner? Frankly, I doubt it.

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