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« "Faithful" To What? | Main | Orthodox Displeased That Pope Discarded "Patriarch of the West" Title »

Tuesday, June 13, 2006

Comments

 mark

Good news Joseph! I was at Bishop's Conference in L.A. today. We had a wonderful conversation with a member of the clergy who said that Bishop Brown has over extended his authority in demanding that people not kneel under pain of sin. Father Tran has never retracted that statement publicly to the parishioners at St. Mary's. He has never retracted it to the elderly coulple that he told were in mortal sin if they knely deliberately. This clergy member said that anyone who knows theology knows two things..#1 It's not a mortal sin..# It is not disobedient, Rome allows it. He said that too many Catholics were uneducated about what the Church allows. I realize that the same people will still beat a dead horse about disobedience. Their consciences are troubled because they should have been united. They are the Catholics that are confused about obedience. If they continue to harangue the issue, it will be obvious that they don't care about giving God His due honor. This will prove that they are interested in being right. Pride is deadly and it comes in many forms.

Joseph D'Hippolito

Mark, many thanks. However, did the member of the clergy with whom you talked discuss the matter with Brown? If so, what was the response?

Beeline

J D'Hippo, your accusing people of blind obedience and claiming the authority to be obnoxious because you live in the Diocese in Orange.
Your unbelievable!

http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=1628173&postcount=118
http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=1620521&postcount=23

 mark

Joseph, Look at what Truth does to Beeline. Buzzing out of control. I was told that Bishop Brown was annoyed and that the whole U.S. knows about St. Mary's. Isn't it interesting how Beeline gets angry with Catholics who stand up for reverence. Instead of being united, beeline insults and avoids the direct issue. That issue is, "Rome Says We Can Kneel." I loved that the clergyman said that "The days of pray, pay and obey are over." Catholics must learn their faith. Joseph....now thats what I call a Beeline to Truth!

O.C. Anonymous

It's time for Bishop Tod Brown and Fr. Martin Tran, his eager-beaver apparatchik, to humbly admit that they were arrogant and utterly wrong to overstep their authority and attempt to order obedience to their bizarre, muddled, arbitrary norms. Fr. Tran's inarticulate harangues in the bulletin got tedious and embarrassing; Bishop Brown’s seeming hunger for unearned respect (or something -- I can only guess at his weird motivations and thought processes) caused him to throw this puerile tantrum. It’s all really about his childish “I’ll show them who’s boss” attitude, and it began with him pulling permission for the Tridentine Mass immediately after Fr. Johnson retired. Parishioners who resist Brown and try to work for a restoration of the sacred at St. Mary’s are often dismissed as selfish and immature by critics, but who is it who is acting like an immature bully? Brown and Tran stand before the world with egg all over their faces. It’s time for both of them to sit down and be quiet.

O.C. Anonymous

I would add that parish administrator Fr. Martin Tran should really tender his resignation. He's shown himself willing to do anything -- ANYTHING -- to win an appointment as a pastor, including scaring and bullying little old ladies and kids (altar boys.) I wish he were as eager to serve God as he is his boss in Orange (and in this case, those aren't congruent goals.) I think he may have to put his dreams of being a pastor on ice for a while.

Loyolalaw98

I just had a chance to read some of the language Joseph has used against Dubliner.

There is no place in a purportedly Roman Catholic website for this verbiage.

In saying this let it be known that I disagree with Dubliner about 99% of the time. Nonetheless, Joseph is out of line.

Civilized discourse would critique an idea, not the person. In fact, classically, use of the ad hominem attack was considered proof that the attacker himself had a weak argument.

Hasn't Maximus warned him about this in the past?

Who moderates this blog to make sure things don't get out of hand?

Leo Wong

Dear Mr. d'Hippolito,

(Just between us:) Hear! Hear!

Joseph D'Hippolito

Those of you who have problems with my use of the terms "wanker," "toady," and "emasculated lackey" would also have problems with St. Paul encouraging those who maintained the necessity of circumcision to "castrate themselves," or even with Christ's labelling the Pharisees "whitewashed sepulchres" or a "brood of vipers."

Does that mean that I'm equivalent to Christ or St. Paul? Of course not! Nevertheless, sometimes strong language is necessary to make a point to the perpetually stubborn.

Beeline

JoeDHippo.:
I dont have a problem with those terms when properly applied, but
when it comes to repeated personal attacks,
'making it personal', and even the quotes used in your defense...you seem to lack maturity in discourse.

You have not made it about personal views
you have made it about you trying to disparage others.

I'm new here, but if more of this is the norm and birds of a feather unite in this stuff, I'll just be moving on towards where
learned discourse prevails.
Thought I'd toss this serious chestnut toward the fire.

Beeline

and no! JD'Hippo, its not open season on Catholics who proclaim obedience to their Bishop.

 mark

Joseph, Once again Beeline would be better served to follow her own advice. Beeline is ten times more critical on other blogs of her fellow Catholics. This is the best example of the "Pot calling the kettle Black"! Beeline feels it is open season to criticize Catholics who are aware of their right to kneel. Beeline please practice what you preach. This type of duplicity is not Catholic. Double standards are nothing to buzz about! Please refer to Joseph by his name. Why would a charity officer be so disrespectful to the Protector of the Universal Church's name by belittling it?
Joseph cites valid points regarding the state of things. He is not lukewarm. You seem to only find fault with the truth. Another priest told me today that they are glad that the spiritual corruption is being exposed. Pope Gregory the Great said "It is better for scandals to arise than the Truth be Suppressed!" As long as Beeline stings her own team she will be a Truth Suppresser!
Beeline will be pollinated with the Truth eventually. God loves Beeline,**when she is not stinging**too!

Thomistic

Forgive my ignorance, but what bad language has Joseph used in this thread that I was supposed to warn him about and/or censor?

Maximus

Jospeh D'Hippolito:

I have warned you in the past about your laguage and incredibly uncharitable attitude. You promised to reform. You didn't. I banned you from the blog. Later, I lifted the ban and you are back to your old behavior again.

No more warnings. You are banned again.

Maximus

And just as bad, you trashed the Irish.

 mark

Maximus to err is human to forgive is divine! Why have you only singled out Joseph for punishment?

Have you warned others who have cruel comments?

I only saw Joseph respond to the vitriolic posts to Orthodoxy.

Joseph, I hope Maximus allows you to post with us.

P.S. Sad to say, I am Irish and many of the tragic liberal ideas have been hoisted upon us by Irish clergy. I was told that by an Irish priest.

****Edited: A Note from Thomistic Is Below****

Joseph was warned in the past about some of his posts, including one with profanity. He had been banned, but had asked to be allowed back and was given another chance. Although i didn't see any profanity personally, it may have been scrubbed by another author before I saw it.

In any event, I trust that Maximus has a proper Christian attitude towards Joseph.

Even in the Church there are censures for serious infractions, namely excommunication and interdict.

Maximus

Dubliner:

This is your warning. Some of your comments have been no better than Joseph's. Clean it up or I'll have to ban you, as well.

Mark:

1) Joseph has been given second chances, and the same 'sin" continues to be committed.

2) I do not "censure" posts I disagree with (I think the word you're looking for is "censor"). I'll thank you no tot leap to conclusions.

Civility is what is required in the RCB comments. That is asking very little, and it's for the benefit of everyone who wants to comment. In my blogging experience, trashy comments tend to chase out civil comments, and eventually the wheat moves on and all we are left with is the chaff.

One can make a point without name-calling, vulgarity, profanity or obscenity. I'm happy to give a warning and the chance to amend, but if the offense continues, I'll take action for the sake of everyone else.

Leo Wong

I deplore all personal attacks in blog comments, because they don't advance the discussion. But I think Mr. d'Hippolito has been provoked. I therefore voluntary withdraw from commenting in this blog until the ban on Mr. d'Hippolito is lifted.

JDM

What?! Joseph added humor and spunk to the blog.
Fine. If this is going to be a old man's tavern, I'll just take my fresh and lively 20-something years out of here.

 mark

Thank You Leo and JDM, I bet even the Dubliner as Godfrey Mannion would not want Joseph banned! The Church is in sad shape because of constant compromises to individual and personal holiness. Many shepherds have lost their salt. Hearing Joseph actually **GET IT** was wonderful.
Now he is being silenced too! Good Bye Good Man! I won't be posting here either until the ban is removed. I am praying that your sentence will be commuted. Joseph I believe some experience has helped you to be as frustrated and angry as you are. Guess what?
Me too? I bet its a doozy! Now at least you can see that there are diverse Catholics who can defend Truth without compromise by defending their friend! OHHH! If only Catholics were united our weak Shepherds would be compelled to Holiness. They would have to be because no one would financially support them. Then you would see the cream of the crop! Joseph is Salt and when Salt looses its flavor, what is it good for? Please don't throw out the Salt or this place will be bland!

Maximus

Sorry you guys feel that way. Vaya con Dios.

O.C. Anonymous

I too am sad to see Joseph banned. While one of the terms he used was indeed off-color, he added courage of conviction to the flow of comment. Then, if the others leave in protest, I'm afraid we'll be left with milk toast. With the sorry state of the Church, we need people who are willing to stand up be counted -- albeit in civil terms. Can't we just have one more blanket warning, and have everyone come back and behave themselves? We need to keep our eye on the ball: the goal here is to shine the hot light of Truth on the malefactors who scurry under rocks and rotted logs, the people who thrive in a damp, unilluminated environment. If truthful commentators are banned, the bad guys chalk up a win.

Beeline

I basically agree with Dubliner on obedience to the Bishop but let me explain.

A few years ago, Cardinal Mahoney of Los Angeles opened a new Cathedral some dubbed
the the 'Taj Mahoney'. It was basically modern
architecture where a Church is somewhat indistiguishable from a business conference hall. Over one of the entrances there is a metal relief of a 'short haired worker maiden'(picture a russian old maid factory worker, somewhat 'butch') with arms outstreched that is supposed to be the Blessed Virgin Mary. Cardinal Mahoneys diocesean website has a 'gay &lesbian' outreach button as the first and foremost
prominent feature of his site. This is all the tip of the iceberg and Bishop Brown in
his short tenure here as the Bishop of the Diocese of Orange County Ca, has mirrored
Mahoney on almost all issues. Mahoney is the titular leader of the 'liberal Catholic Church' here in the U.S.. Cardinal Mahoney
and Cardinal Brown are two birds of a feather in that regard and both honor pro-abortion 'Catholic' politicians, will roll out the red carpet to renown Catholic dissidents yet they disparage the orthodox. When I visited the Los Angeles Cathedral I posed with great pride with a protester there holding a sign saying 'Phony Mahony'.
I actually value that picture even though its buried somewhere around here.

However, when I go to masses in Los Angeles county they have some wierd practices where you are to stand after communion instead of kneeling. The communion procession starts from the rear pews and advances to the front
ones.I cant claim 100% obedience, as I kneel
after communion, say my prayer, then resume
to standing, but I do my best to be consistent with those I am with.

I am a parishineer at St. Mary's in Huntington Beach:
My point is, aside from these very rotten apple Bishops who try to influence their members with fuzzy thinking and give bad example. They dont actually issue anything to me that I cant obey and the only part where my obdience or lack of obedience
could possibly intersect is in Mass Liturgy. I am not required to vote for 'Open Borders', 'Homosexual Unions' or anything else that they try to influence on, and these things deserve protest and actually
I would be happy if Pope Benedict actually threw some of our Bishops out on their ears.

However, protesting against the Liturgical Norms
they(a Bishop) have licitly set with the approval of Rome does not fall into the category of being asked to do something illicit. Doesnt fall into the category of
an immoral, illicit order where in the
'Nuremburg Trials' after WWII the legal supposition was introduced that you were not held accountable to unlawful or immoral orders.Further, I dont want my presence at Mass to be about a protest. I am there for Christ and not there to support in any way my fellow parishioneers and their thoughts about what liturgy should be.
The protesters at St. Marys' actively protest within the Mass, one example is that
they all sit during the 'sign of peace' and dont interact with anyone. Its part of their
protest manifesto and what they have agreed to do in conjuncton to their protest.

The laity can protest the actions of a Bishop, and they can voice their opinion
over what they prefer in Liturgy. However,
'Liturgical Wars and Protests' are not justified and cannot be considered valid based upon personal feelings over whether you have a good or bad bishop. And certainly they shouldnt be waged during Mass!

No one would
feel justified starting a 'Liturgical War' with someone , a Bishop, that they thought was a decent chap, and you cant use feelings
to justify whether you are or are not going
to obey the Bishop in his proper Liturgical
Realm.

So much of what has been bad in this thread
is that there are differences of opinion, and some have been part of a repetitive cheerleading squad, some have excesses of rationalization and other accuse those of
obedience as to not being aware Catholics,
, and some feel they can confront a Bishop on anything if they think he is a 'rotten apple'.

I believe that these 'rotten apple' Bishops
should be confronted on most issues, but
liturgically speaking, in that arena they are not at fault even if they pander to modern contrivances. Consequently you can have an opinion but from my perspective you
cannot be openly defiant in the liturgical sphere when all you are being asked to do/obey are within the rules governing the mass.

Peace

 Georgia

Beeline is completely inaccurate. To say that people are sitting down is false and untrue. You see I also attend St. Mary's and I am at a loss for Beeline's version of the truth. It was very helpful to have a theologian and canon lawywer tell me that we do have the right to kneel. This wonderful priest who is even liberal said that anyone who knows a drop about theology and the mind of the Church, realizes that it is not even disobedience, let alone a mortal sin. Beeline is being pulled by both sides. This is now obvious! By stating that kneeling Catholics are being openly defiant is just as false a statement that demonstrates poor understanding of the rights of the laity. Common postures are good but without taking away the right of a Catholic to kneel down and Adore Jesus. Common sense is not always that easy. It was kind of Beeline to sign with peace. That is a good word to reflect on when you are posting false impressions to people. The priest who said we could kneel also said that poor Bishop Brown doesn't know theology. He said that a handful of Bishops were in this category and that Bishop Brown is one of them. Now this statement does not take away from his authority. His authority should be in conjunction with the Mind of the Church. Bishop Brown overstepped the Mind of the Church with a mind of his own and this is not opinion, it is fact. People may stand, kneel or sit if the Spirit moves them! Rome has spoken! The matter is settled if you understand.

Dubliner

I was deeply offended by the coarseseness and vulgarity of Joseph D'Hippoloto's comments; but I believe that banning him is not the correct measure. An apology would go a long way.
What was even more offensive was his attempt to justify his vulgarity by recourse to scripture. This is a person I would not wish to live near or attend the same church as - I fear he would test my christianity to the limit. His dogmatism
is scary, and seems to emanate from a profound self-righteousness.

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