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Saturday, July 08, 2006

Comments

Amy

Is that a PURSE I see on the floor next to T.D.B.? No hidden meaning in that one.

 Atlanta Catholic's Wife

"SRIRIT OF THE LITURGY"
There are groups of no small influence, who are trying to talk us out of kneeling. "It doesn't suit our culture", they say (which culture?). "It's not right for a grown man to do this--he should face God on his feet." Or again: It's not right for redeememed man--he has beeen set free by Christ and doesn't need to kneel anymore."

Kneeling does not come from any culture---it comes from the Bible and its knowledge of God. The central importance of kneeling in the Bible can be seen in a very concrete way. The word "proskynein" alone occurs fifty nine times in the New Testament, twenty-four of which are in the Apocalypse, the book of the heavenly liturgy, which is presented to the Church as a standard for her own liturgy.

For me, the most important passage for the theology of kneeling will always be the Great hymn of Christ in Philippians 2:6-11. In this pre-Pauline hymn, we hear and see the prayer of the apostolic Church and can discern within it her confession of faith in Christ. However, we also hear the voice of the Apostle, who enters into this prayer and hands it onto us, and, ultimately, we peceive here both the profound inner unity of the Old and New Testaments and the cosmic breadth of the Christian faith. The hymn presents Christ as the antitype of the First Adam. While the latter high-handedly grasped at likeness to God, Christ does not count equality with God, which is his by nature, "a thing to be grasped", but humbles himself unto death, even death on the Cross. It is precisely this humility, which comes from love, that is the truly divine reality and procures for him the "name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth" (Phil 2:5-10)

The man who learns to believe learns also to kneel, and a faith or a liturgy no longer familiar with kneeling would be sick at the core. Where it has been lost, kneeling must be rediscovered, so that, in our prayer, we remain in fellowship with the apostles and martyrs, in fellowship with the whole cosmos, indeed in union with Jesus Christ Himself.

Written by Pope Benedict XVI


Beeline

I find these Bishop cartoons to be nothing but candy and popcorn to certain groups out there and dont have any intrinsic worth.

Some are exceptional or pointed, but I guess
my point is that these cartoons aren't being
run anywhere else and are just created for this or another site and are not really worthy of comment and may just further the artist's portfolio/resume more so than anything else.

Beeline

However, I probably like the above cartoon
the best.

Thomistic

Beeline,

You are wrong about the cartoons. They have been featured in many places and are enjoyed by at least hundreds of people. They have been featured on a few other blogs, as well as at Seattle Catholic (which has a fairly wide audience).

The efforts of Restore The Sacred have also been documented by links on Spirit Daily. Those links alone produced hundreds of contacts who have e-mailed members of Restore The Sacred offering support and asking how they can help. These new contacts are also sharing this information with friends.

Restore The Sacred has many contacts now, nationwide, and their efforts have been documented on the front page of the Los Angeles Times. The Los Angeles Times article was reprinted in hundreds of papers across the country and is all over the internet and the Catholic blogosphere.

Members of Restore The Sacred have also provided information that appeared in the Orange County Register, especially in relation to the case of Fr. Cesar Salazar, but also in regard to heterodoxy within the Diocese of Orange (none of which was related to the situation at St. Mary's by the Sea).

I have read your comments about Restore The Sacred many times and have never really replied to them, although I've been meaning to do so. I've just gotten busy with other things and then time slipped away.

Your observation (in other threads) about the group being selfish and only caring about their own petty liturgical concerns couldn't be further from the truth.

I have often thought that you must know little or nothing of these people to even say such a thing. That charge is evidence of profound ignorance on your part, despite your claims to authoritative knowledge about the St. Mary's by the Sea situation.

These people have been working to expose the corruption within the Diocese of Orange for years. Years! Long before Fr. Tran or Fr. Sy came to St. Mary's by the Sea.

They contacted Cardinal Arinze (when he spoke at the graduation at Thomas Aquinas College a few years ago). They have written to various offices within the Holy See (over a period of years), and have even received responses from Rome.

Some concerned Catholics have personally gone to Rome and handed detailed documentation of the heterodoxy within the Diocese of Orange to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (years ago).

These people have been watching Bishop Brown and his priests for years, documenting everything they could, and contacting the Los Angeles Lay Catholic Mission with information that has led to several articles in that publication (so as to have a paper trail in print and on the Internet of heterodox practices occurring within the Diocese of Orange). They have also exposed things going on in the Diocese of Orange to The Wanderer (as far back as seven years ago). The current issues at St. Mary's by the Sea were also recently featured in The Wanderer.

The Open Letter to Tod Brown, Bishop of Orange (linked here in its latest form) is nearly three years old. The group just added things as they happened to keep the letter up to date. If you'll notice, the vast majority of issues discussed in the Open Letter do not involve the liturgy or St. Mary's by the Sea. St. Mary's is discussed in one small section, as is the Tridentine Mass, and the purpose of mentioning St. Mary's & the Tridentine is to demonstrate the type of things Bishop Brown does not tolerate in juxtaposition to the things he does.

Incidentally, members of Restore The Sacred still regularly receive from Matt Abbott (who published the Open Letter) forwarded e-mails from Catholics across the country who have read the Open Letter and wish to offer their support and prayers, and often offering to help, if they can.

Beeline, I don't want to sound uncharitable, but your posts sometimes make you sound like a blowhard and a know-it-all, and given the frequent errors you make in your descriptions of the motives of these people, you end up looking like an arrogant, loose cannon who frequently falls into the sin of rash judgment.

I want to think better of you, Beeline. Especially if you are who I think you are. (Did you ever work at MDHS?)

Lighten up a bit and give these poor people a break.

Hopefully this message will make you aware that there is much more to this situation than you thought you knew.

Pax,

Thomistic

 a friend

As a bystander, I have also noticed Beeline, (who says they attend the place of the kneeling controversy)sound disloyal to the people who are trying to Restore the Sacred. Beeline should pray and ask God to remove the bitterness in his heart. There seems to be an unusual sarcasm towards fellow Catholics. This cannot be consistent with someone who is unhappy with the state of the Church.

Beeline

I am opinionated and I cant tell you what MDHS
stands for?? besides MD High School??

As to your personal opinions about me??,
I havent solicited them.
You have your opinions and I have mine.
Mine are mostly restricted to issues and groups. I try to leave the personal out of it
unless...

a friend wrote:
>sound disloyal to the people who are trying >to Restore the Sacred

Sire, Lets make this crystal clear!
I have no loyalties to 'Restore the Sacred'
and they have no loyalties to me.

I quit taking their flyers although I grabbed one last week and there was nothing new in there except the same old calls to have everyone conform to their idea of Mass
postures.

As to the issues, there are two sides of the coin and it seems within this group one side
is heavily favored. I say 'Live and Let Live' and I try to represent the view from that other less shiny side of that coin.

Beeline

I wrote the above!

Giovanny

So many people make such an issue about this. Did any of the Apostles kneel at the last supper? So why do we use this to divide, foster criticism or exclude people. I mean this for both sides. I think is so petty and it shows that our minds can be so petty. Sad!

Thomistic

Whether or not the Apostles knelt at the Last Supper is irrelevant. Red herrings are not helpful when trying to discern what is going on here.

I know that you mentioned "both sides", but your example would be an attempt to support the position of one side.

Read what the Pope says (in the quote above) about kneeling. I think that what he says should be considered.

I also think that when kneeling has been a tradition in the Latin rite, and kneeling is understood to be a sign of reverence in the Latin rite, it makes no sense for a Latin rite bishop to try to stop Catholics from kneeling. I think having the attitude Bishop Brown has towards kneeling is a sign that he is one of the people Pope Benedict is talking about when he warns readers:

"There are groups of no small influence, who are trying to talk us out of kneeling. "It doesn't suit our culture", they say (which culture?). "It's not right for a grown man to do this--he should face God on his feet." Or again: It's not right for redeememed man--he has beeen set free by Christ and doesn't need to kneel anymore."

I'll let you read the rest of his remarks above.

Pax,

Thomistic

Thomistic

Beeline,

I wasn't trying to attack you personally. I was just trying to articulate how your opinions come across.

I understand that you feel you are being opinionated and expressing yourself, but you seem unconcerned that the things you say about Restore The Sacred are direct criticisms of every individual member of the group's personal character. Your remarks have often been unkind, but the most disturbing thing is that your statements of opinion (presented as facts from someone "in the know") have often been untrue.

You may believe you don't owe anyone any loyalty, but you do owe everyone Christian charity, and you are bound by Christian duty not to bear false witness against your neighbors.

Pax,

Thomistic

Jean

Careful Beeline they kick people they don't agree with off!

Thomistic

Jean,

I don't agree with you most of the time, but I've never even considered asking Maximus to ban you.

Nobody has ever been banned for disagreeing with me or anyone else. Two people were banned for rude comments. They aren't even banned for life, just two months or so. It wasn't my decision to ban them, but I have to admit that since they've been driven underground (I say that because I think they still sneak posts using an IP mask and using different names), things have been more civil and people haven't been hurling invectives at one another.

Pax,

Thomistic

Jean

"I don't agree with you most of the time, but I've never even considered asking Maximus to ban you.

Nobody has ever been banned for disagreeing with me or anyone else."

What is the reason for this comment? I don't get it. If it is a subtle threat, it is a sad form of threatening someone. I find also VERY interesting your comment of "Whether or not the Apostles knelt at the Last Supper is irrelevant." This type of comment demonstrates how it is more important to support what those above you mandate than to do what your Founder did as any rule the vatican or anyone in the church comes up with, should ALWAYS be seen in the light of what it's Founder did.

Thomistic

The first Mass at the Last Supper very likely involved reclining at table. It also occurred at the end of a meal. All of those present were Jewish men. Jesus washed everyone's feet just before the meal.

Should we all wear sandals and that clothing of the time period, too?

Should we all have beards?

Should modern Masses incorporate all of those things, Jean?

Jesus fashioned a whip and beat sinful men, driving them out of the temple. Should we revive that practice, Jean?

I always enjoy your comments, Jean. I almost never agree with them, but they are always interesting, if only because they evidence a bizarre understanding of the Catholic faith. In fact, generally speaking, the only thing about your comments that can be predicted with certainty is that they will not likely conform to authentic Catholic teaching.

I'm curious as to whether you went to Catholic school? Based on your comments, I wouldn't be at all surprised if you did.

Thomistic

Another thing I like about Jean is his multiple personalities. He has posted as Jean, Giovanny, dymphna, James Mansell, Krisfromindy, Lee Strong, Vince Brian, and A Simple Sinner. And that's just from tracking the IP address of his latest post. He frequently uses different IP addresses.

Using a different IP address, he has called himself Long-Skirts, T. Shaw, Jim, Nicole, Jean, Tom, dymphna, Larry Wells, A Simple Sinner, and Anonymous.

A Simple Sinner

Thomistic,

This is A Simple Sinner here... I look at this blog pretty much every day and have not noticed prior identity theft... (If you could point out where this has happened, I would appreciate it.)

I hope everyone knows that at least 99% of what is posted under this screen name is from me - a midwesterner who is NOT [Jean,Jean, Giovanny, dymphna, James Mansell, Krisfromindy, Lee Strong, Vince Brian, etc.] making an effort to live my life in conformity with what the Church teaches, and expand more greatly my knowledge of Her teachings.

The idea that somone else uses the screen name I post under, kinda steams me... I know it is not the same as using one's Christian name (or stealing the same!) but for those of us who regularly comment - and there are many... well it is kind of annoying that we can't just assume people are who they post themselves as being...

I don't post under other screen names, let alone ones established by other regulars. I hope everyone else here could do the same.

Beeline

"One of the joys of being wrong is the pleasure
it gives other people."

O.C. Anonymous

I seriously doubt that the last comment above is really from Thomistic. Can't you people grow up?

O.C. Anonymous

I was referring to the comment containing an off-color word, which seems to have disappeared. Let's all remember this is the Lord's Day and behave accordingly.

****Edited by Thomistic****

I deleted the fraudulent post claiming me as the author and requested that Maximus ban the IP address of the offending poster.

Jean

Thomistic

I do take offense to this as only two people have posted from my computer. Myself and my partner, which has only posted once, his name is Giovanny. He is not interested that much in this post so you won't see him again probably. All the other names are not me and I do expect an apology.

Earlier you said:
"The first Mass at the Last Supper very likely involved reclining at table. It also occurred at the end of a meal. All of those present were Jewish men. Jesus washed everyone's feet just before the meal.

Should we all wear sandals and that clothing of the time period, too?

Should we all have beards?

Should modern Masses incorporate all of those things, Jean?"

Interestingly as church the only thing we have retained and defend to death is that they be men. Ironically OFTEN has the logic of Jesus did it has been used by church leaders to justify an exclusive male priesthood. Maybe you should ask church leaders this.

Regarding your comment of my ideas that "they evidence a bizarre understanding of the Catholic faith" again I find that to be insulting and lacking in charity just because they differ from you understanding. This is a very base reasoning that just because someone has different ideas they are "bizarre." Also it show poor mental ability as well as rigid thinking. I am beginning to realize that this blog is not as serious as I thought or represent Catholic thinking in the good sense as universal and open. It sounds more like a tribal/dictatorial mentality. So I will not waste my time no longer here.


 Atlanta Catholic's Wife

OH NO! Thomistic must have been right! The ol'I've been caught so I'll call you names as I run away isn't exactly open and mature either. What it is...feels like embarrassed!

A Simple Sinner

Jean,

I just don't buy it. I will be frank, and I will apologize if I am wrong in advance.

Reviewing your posts over the course of the past few weeks I have noticed mulitple writing styles. Sometimes it is a mess of run on sentences with no paragraphs, other times more concise with paragraphs...

For the times it is quck snippets and run-on sentences with arguments evading reason but alluding to personal exeprience or making claims agasint the sexual predilection of Thomistic... well I find it REALLY hard to believe that someone who claims to have doctorate in psychology would reason and write the way you do.

(Not trying to be a pro-academic snob, but wouldn't a fellow who had gone through a masters and PHD program know better than to blatantly plagarize as you have????)

"Jean" and "Gionvanny" (The Methodist BF who spends a few hours a week in adoration of the Blessed Sacrament with you... uh-huh) Just be honest already about who you really are, what you really are about, and how many of you there are.

Play games somewhere else.

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