Universal Indult News From Vatican Radio

Catholic Church Conservation blog has a post which translates a conversation on Vatican Radio about the impending motu proprio on the Tridentine Rite.

You can read the translation here: Indult for Latin Mass

Rorate Caeli discusses the issue here: For the record: "Motu Proprio" News in Radio Vaticana

Angel Queen discusses it here: Indult for Latin Mass- Radio Vatican Commentary

Any thoughts?

Comments

[Patrick]

This guy may be an "aristocratic Jesuit" (whatever that is), but this comment is baloney:

The exact differences between the old and the new Rite are minimal and are hardly recognizable if the new Rite, as permitted and when sought, is celebrated in Latin and with the back to the people.

What he says below is true. However, priests like him are also part of the problem:

In my opinion, our actual problem in Europe is that the Faithful find today’s Masses often banal with little mystery and at times also with arbitrary additions to the Rite.

How can it be said that people understand the Mass better these days when so many don't even believe in the Real Presence? An old lady may have occasionally prayed the Rosary during Mass, but she probably had a better understanding of what was going on at the altar than half the people in today's Church:

But let’s admit it, at that time millions took part in the Mass diligently and faithfully but have not understood anything and only prayed the Rosary.

The correct Rite is a "mere trifle?" I don't know what goes on Africa and Asia, but I saw plenty of Vietnamese, Filipinos, etc. at the indult Masses in Los Angeles.

If we look at the growing Churches in Africa and Asia, the celebration of the correct Rite is a mere trifle. I can hardly imagine that anyone in these young Churches will want the old Rite.

[Aaron]

Patrick:

Great post. You really nailed it. These modernist priests are living in la-la land.

[Literacy-chic]

I have been driven to pray the Rosary during the Mass to keep my mind focused on something spiritual instead of hatred for the Time Life tunes being played by the band. I longed for the Latin Mass even when I was not Catholic! It drew me in to the Church, along with many other things. But I'm not sure why it has to be an either-or proposition. I wouldn't mind alternating the Latin with the Novus Ordo. And I'm not sure why those who believe so wholeheartedly in the Real Presence can declare that a non-Tridentine Mass is somehow less sacred or valid. Isn't that contradictory? Perhaps we can think of this in a Platonic way... In The Symposium, Plato describes how some individuals must come to the Forms through baser desires while others have access to the more exalted form. Some people do not, can not, or will not see the beauty in the Tridentine Mass. Granted, many of those have never experienced one. The Sacrament is valid either way, so why denigrate the Novus Ordo? I want to see the Tridentine more readily available, but I fail to see the reason for the hostility of many of its supporters. Perhaps someone will enlighten me without Vatican II-bashing?

[JMC]

Literacy-Chic has hit the nail on the head. I'm one of the fortunate ones whose parish has an orthodox priest. In this parish, the Novus Ordo Mass is indeed very spritual. Also, while we are not a very large parish, there are enough parishioners that we have two choirs. The one which sings at the 8:30 AM Mass on Sunday is called the Schola Antiqua and specializes in sacred polyphany and Gregorian chant, while Joyful Praise, which sings at the 11:00 AM Mass, specializes in contemporary music, so that each parishoner can go to a Mass that has the music he prefers. Both Masses, however, are celebrated with reverence. I've been a member of this parish for 16 years now, and I have yet to see any "surprises" show up in the liturgy. Even when we briefly had a priest who tended to have a more liberal view, he only tried once, on his first Sunday with us, to spring surprises on us. In the Canon, he would say "the Virgin Mother" and drop the words "of God," and he insisted on making the Sign of the Cross with the words, "In the 'names'..." He was confronted by almost the entire parish about it afterward, and didn't try any more "innovations" after that. (It helps that our bishop is also very traditional; this priest knew that, if we took our complaints to His Excellency, he would back us.)

By the same token, if and when this Motu Proprio is released, I see no eason why churches couldn't do the same sort of thing with the Mass, having both Novus Ordo and Tridentine. I think our Parish Council anticipated this sort of thing.

It's a parish which grew suddenly about 25 years ago, rapidly outgrowing its original layout. Originally designed with a single long nave, it acquired another wing, so now it is cross-shaped. What was once the sanctuary became the back of one of the "side wings" (transepts?), and a new sanctuary was constructed at the intersection, with a modern altar, and the tabernacle built into the wall behind it. A few years ago, it was decided that it was about time they moved the old "main altar" into the new sanctuary. The sanctuary had to be expanded to make room, and it was done in such a way that there is now room for the priest to celebrate Mass on EITHER SIDE of the altar table.

By the way, when the Novus Ordo Mass was originally promulgated back in 1963 or so, the priest continued to celebrate with his back to the people. The altar wasn't turned around until two or three years later. At least, that's the way it happened in the diocese I lived in back then.

[Patrick]

Literacy-chic,

I made the following comment above:

How can it be said that people understand the Mass better these days when so many don't even believe in the Real Presence? An old lady may have occasionally prayed the Rosary during Mass, but she probably had a better understanding of what was going on at the altar than half the people in today's Church.

Of course, the sacraments in the new rite are valid. However, in recent years, there have been several polls which indicate that a large percentage of Catholics no longer believe in transubstantiation.

I don't know how many Mass-going Catholics have told me "the Eucharist is just a symbol." Yet, we are constantly being told things are better these days because the Mass is in the vernacular and "people can understand it." If belief in the Real Presence were taken to be a measure of how well people understand the Mass, then people better understood the Mass fifty years ago.

Whether I were at the NO or TLM, I would rather sit next to the quiet old lady praying her rosary than watch a bunch people shaking hands, back slapping and saying things like "hello ya ole bean how'z Trix?"

[Patrick]

JMC,

The Mass of Pau VI was not on the scene until 1970. From 1965-1969 a series of directives were released allowing changes here and there to the 1962 Roman Missal. Some parishes didn't implement all the changes.

Our pastor was an auxilary bishop. I served Mass during the late sixties. The Mass at our parish was basically the TLM without the Judica Me at the beginning of Mass and the last Gospel at the end. We may have also omitted the second Confiteor and there may have been some other minor tweaks. The only Eucharistic prayer was the Roman Canon.

[Barbara Kralis]

Please let me give you, if I may the following analogy. It is something I formed in my own mind sometime ago when I have sorrowfully thought of the differences of the reverence in the words, prayers, demeanor and actions between the Novus Ordo Mass and the Tridentine Mass. This is my simple analogy:

Picture this scene, if you will.

A husband, John, comes downstairs in the morning to have breakfast with his wife. He sits down in the chair and immediately grabs the morning newspaper while his wife is over the stove. Silence. She asks him if he slept well, he replies, "Yeah," out from behind the newspaper where his face is buried.

She serves him his lovely breakfast and sits down with him to eat. Silence from behind the newspaper. John puts forkfuls of food into his mouth without moving the newspaper from his face. His wife, after years of this rudeness, quietly asks:

"John, do you love me?"

John replies low from inside the newspaper,
"Yeah, yeah."

She asks again, "John, do you really love me anymore?"

And John says again, like a robot, "Yeah, yeah, sure I do."

Next Scenario.

I think, next, of this scenario when I think of the Tridentine Mass:

John comes downstairs in the morning to have breakfast with his wife. He walks over to the stove where his wife is cooking and plants a big kiss on her neck.

"Good morning, my love," he says to her. "Did you sleep well last night?"

She turns, smiling, and tells him of her latest silly dream and together they laugh and hug.

He sits down at the table, she serves him his lovely breakfast,and together they say grace before commencing to eat. They have wonderful conversation about both of their plans for the day, they laugh and kid each other about the day's events.

She asks him: "John, do you love me?"

John looks at her with amazement, gets up from his chair and goes over to her, he kneels down at her side, takes her lovely face into his hands and kisses her on the forehead, on the tip of her nose, on her two cheeks and tells her:

"You know I love you with all my entire being."

There is no need for her to ask him again, she is filled with confidence and security and she expresses her love for him as well.

That is the difference for me between the two Masses, the Novus Ordo and the Tridentine. This represents for me the difference in the the quality of the prayers from each Mass, being sent up to God the Father.

[Barbara Kralis]

Here below
http://www.latin-mass-society.org/missals.htm
I give you a comparison of what the priest prays in the Tridentine Mass [this comparison is given to you in English but the priest prays in Latin] and what the priest prays in the Novus Ordo. However, the prayers of the laity in the Tridentine Missal are in English and laymen silently read along with the priest from their English/Latin Missals.

This is what the Church has always asked the faithful to do, to "Pray the Mass" along with the priest. We were taught by the nuns and our parents in the l940's to use our English/Latin missals to pray the Mass. Anyone who says those in the pews did not follow the Tridentine Mass but said their rosary instead is not quite accurate.

But, language is not the only beauty of a Holy Mass, but it is the words of the prayers, music, actions, demeanor. Praying the N.O. Mass in Latin does not increase the meaning of its much watered-down prayers.

It's important to also remember that the Tridentine does not allow disruptions such as the laity hand-shake/kissy face/hugging fiesta, nor does it have the holding hands Protestant innovation during the Our Father, no musical instruments other than the Organ, only sacred music or Gregorian chant and polyphony; no women on the altar, kneeling reverently to receive Blessed Sacrament only on the tongue, no talking in Church, only reverent dress,no slacks for women, etc. This Mass encourages and inspires many authentic Priestly vocations.

Which Mass do you think is more pleasing to God? For those younger folks who did not receive their Catholic formation in the Tridentine Mass, you do not need to understand and speak Latin to follow the Mass in your English missal. Eventually, through the grace of God and the Holy Spirit, you will pick up parts of the Latin as you pray.
barb

[Georgia]

Thank you Barbara! I have also reflected on the difference and depth of the prayer, petition and thanksgiving between the two. Your analogy rings so true to those who have experienced the beauty of what you are describing. How could deeper and more meaningful conversation and Adoration of God not spiritually benefit us to a higher level of love?

[Literacy-chic]

If the sacraments in the new rite are valid (Patrick), how is it possible for some to ask which Mass . . . is more pleasing to God (Barbara) or suggest that certain prayers are of superior quality? I rather thought that we were to believe that all faithful participation is pleasing to God.

To clarify: I have been to a Tridentine Mass. It is beautiful. It is reverent. I would love to have it offered without going back home to New Orleans. I have family members who stopped attending Mass when the Novus Ordo was instituted. My mother, who is non-practicing and did not raise me Catholic (I converted) still says that it seems wrong to her to see the priest facing her and hear what he is saying. She doesn't say why it seems wrong, and I'm not sure there is any theological basis for that opinion. She doesn't have enough regard for the Mass to investigate further and actually attend one, either. It is possible to get too caught up in the Rite and ignore the substance. I started that way myself. I wanted to go to a Latin Mass as a non-Catholic for the "beautiful ritual." Not that anyone here is ignoring the substance! I know that the reverence of the Tridentine is wedded to your belief in the sacredness of the Mass! That is certainly clear!

The touchy-feeliness is something I rejected in Protestantism because there was no substance to go along with it. It is something I have struggled with in the Mass. I would prefer to see it (and the bad Protestant-pop) go away. But at least with the hand-shaking, I have come to accept it as an expression of our Communion as One Body. It's hokey, yes, but it does suggest that point, especially to the college students in the parish I attend. Better to have some participation than a bunch of people only going through the motions, not even singing! Now of course, there is no singing from the congregation in the Tridentine, only the responses. But can we agree that the singing is, for some, a form of prayer? And that "praying the Mass" has multiple manifestations?

I'm not sure the change in Rite is directly related to the change in catechesis. The difference in catechesis was an effect of the interpretation and implementation of Vatican II, but one that was separate from the institution of the Mass. Maybe parents should make their children kneel and recite the whole Mass if they squirm or fall asleep in Mass like my grandmother did... Oh wait! That didn't work either.

Interesting that JMC's parish has the Gregorian chant at 8:30 and Protestant stuff at 11. I would like to see High Mass done traditionally, but I don't need to say that it's the most valid form of worship. Liturgical abuses are one thing, orthodox liturgical variances are something else. Corpus Christi Chapel (also called the Mozarabic Chapel) in the Cathedral of Toledo, Spain, still practices the Mozarabic rite from the 7th-8th century. Perhaps it is more pleasing to God?

[Literacy-chic]

Barbara,

What would happen if the Tridentine prayers were to be offered in English? Isn't there an effort being made to make the English prayers more faithful to the Latin?

[Patrick]

Literacy-Chic,

I found this definition of the term "lex orandi, lex credendi" online. I think it says it all.

According to Catholic tradition, lex orandi, lex credendi - the law of prayer is the law of belief. What this means is that how a person worships not only shows what the person really believes, but that how a person worships can ultimately decide what that person really believes.

As people's patterns of actual worship change, so will their underlying beliefs - even without their realizing it. It is because of this that the Catholic Church can be so strict in maintaining what many might regard as superficial practices, causing them to be seen by many as old-fashioned and tyrannical. The hierarchy realizes that allowing even minor changes in the practice of worship could lead to unforseen and unintended changes in beliefs, and the Church is one organization which understands how to think about how things will turn out over very long spans of time.

Knowing that the sacrament is valid is not enough-we must act it.

If you are happy with your parish I am happy for you. However, I will continue to advocate for the broader availability of the Traditional Mass. Unfortunately, in doing so, it is necessary to debate the merits and demerits of both liturgies.

[Literacy-chic]

Patrick,
I believe that I expressed my love of the traditional Mass, and I do not think I expressed satisfaction with my parish. I welcome with open arms the wider availability of the Latin Tridentine Mass. I would certainly attend it regularly, in part to be able to receive the Eucharist on my tongue, while on my knees. So far we agree, though you have chosen to read my comments only selectively.

My question: Is the Tridentine Mass the only way to "enact the Sacrament" as you put it?

If so, we who are unable to attend a Tridentine Mass are necessarily doomed by our Bishops, pastors, Vatican II, or whomever, to an imperfect practice of the faith. I do not think it is fair to scape-goat the Novus Ordo for the laxity in the practice of some (many? most?) Catholics.

"Lex orandi, lex credenti" would suggest that faithful, orthodox prayer practices can move us up the "ladder" of faith, to return to my previous Plato reference, so presumably it applies to either Rite, practiced regularly and faithfully. In the same way, reception of the Sacraments helps one to grow in faith, whether we are fully aware of that growth or the immensity of the power of the Sacraments.

While it is necessary to debate, is it also necessary to resist compromise or mutual understanding?

[jhughesdunphy]

Catholic laity,including much of the hierarchy, have forgotten what the Catholic Mass really and truly is. How? From their experiences with the "Novus Ordo Missae" or vernacular mass and its theological aberrations and experimentations, most of the faithful don't even know what the mass is anymore. Look at the mass attendance drop since the 'new mass' was innovated! First of all, the mass is a sacrifice for our sin and nothing else by Jesus Christ the Priest, the Victim, and the Altar. It is not a banquet or social affair where we affirm each other's virtue and have a good time inflating our egos. No. It is the sacrifice of love for our sin by Jesus Christ! The differences are significant in the areas of personal holiness and efficacious prayer! Check out what the orthodox Roman Cathlic Mass really is.....

http://www.theorthodoxromancatholic.com

[Literacy-chic]

Hmmm. . . inflated egos. . . What makes you think that I/we don't know what the Mass truly is? Another acknowledged purpose of the mass is to unite the faithful rather than divide, to make us minimize rather than accentuate differences, to help us to learn to regard each other with love. But this is all pretty much theory for me at this point, since I have a squirmy toddler! Thanks for the stimulating exchange! ;)

[ann]

To those of you who may soon be as blessed as we are to attend an indult Mass, observe the young adults and children and ask them what they enjoy about the Latin Mass. They understand its beauty, peacefulness, reverance and supernatural aspects. At our Mass, you can hear a pin drop during Father's homilies and the consecration. Now, where would you rather take your squirming toddlers?

[Patrick]

Literacy-Chic,

I do appreciate other liturgical traditions. In fact, if we don't get motu propio, I will move to a town with an Eastern Rite parish and stick with it. Tonight, I read the following on the Rorate Caeli blog:

He [Reginald Foster, the papal Latinist] said reports that Pope Benedict will reintroduce the Tridentine Mass, which dates from 1570 and is largely conducted in Latin, were wrong – not least because of the Pope's desire to avoid more controversies. A speech last year offended Muslims and more recently he gave initial support to a Polish archbishop who was eventually forced to resign, after admitting that he had collaborated with the communist-era secret police.

"He is not going to do it," Fr Foster said. "He had trouble with Regensberg, and then trouble in Warsaw, and if he does this, all hell will break loose." In any case, he added: "It is a useless mass and the whole mentality is stupid. The idea of it is that things were better in the old days. It makes the Vatican look medieval."

I don't know if this guy really knows the pope's intentions. But, this kind of talk is very depressing coming from the pope's own Latinist. He also declared the Latin language dead.

[Literacy-chic]

Now, where would you rather take your squirming toddlers?

Truthfully, somewhere where she will not vex the prayers of the faithful. But this isn't really about me & my toddler. I will take her to an indult Mass when she is old enough to understand "be still & quiet" and respond accordingly.

Patrick,

This is very depressing. I guess it means more frequent trips to New Orleans to visit St. Patrick's on Sunday morning... (Not what people usually go to New Orleans for, eh?)

[Literacy-chic]

Incidently, how can we verify Fr. Foster's comments?

[Patrick]

The comments from the papal Latinist are bad news either way. If what he said is true, then it is very bad news. If what he said is not true, and he is making it up, then a nut is translating the pope's documents to and from Latin. I hope someone is proof reading his work. I wonder if he works for ICEL.

[Literacy-chic]

FYI--a cursory web search revealed that the quoted text from the Rorate Caeli blog was directly quoted from the Telegraph, who were paraphrasing in part. The original is here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/01/28/wlatin28.xml

[Literacy-chic]

That URL is

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/
2007/01/28/wlatin28.xml

[Matthew]

The author seems to suggest that Traditionalists will be somehow "happy" if the new liturgy were celebrated in Latin and facing east. I think thereby that he has failed to understand the real issues at hand. Traditionalists do not want the new rite in Latin or facing east. In the new rite they see a break with tradition, whereby a completely new liturgy has come about in a way that is inorganic. The old liturgy developed over time, was the result of centuries of prayer and devotion. The old liturgy is so ancient that in a sense it is timeless. The new liturgy despite what they say can never measure up. It is disconnected from its past and is a poor substitute, even though it is valid and a means to salvation. Re-translating the new rite, issuing document after document insisting on its "correct" celebration (whatever that means) will not solve the problem. Benedict will either be a great Pope or a disappointment. He is a liturgist and has wrtten extensively on the subject of liturgy. He could not be forgiven if he fails to address the Church's liturgical crisis. Issuing a universal indult should only mark the beginning of a massive liturgical overhaul needed in our Church.

The author's comment that "I can hardly imagine that anyone in these young Churches will want the old Rite" is erroneous. One has only to see the large number of young people who love the old Mass. I have seen many young people introduced to the old rite and they have fallen in love with it. When one samples the old wine, the new seems bitter and cheap.

[John]

Both Orthodox (Traditional) Catholics and revisionists Catholics continue to use a disingenuious phrase "indult mass (by special permission). John paul 2 knew it and so does Pope benedict 16. NO "special permission" is necessary for any Latin rite priest anywhere in the world at any time to say the Mass of Pius X. The Tridentine Liturgy of the Latin rite of the Catholic Church is protected "in perpetuity" by the Papal Bull QUO PRIMUM, and anathema is levelled on any Catholic, Pope, Bishop Priest or layman who forbids or hinders the Catholic cleric from saying/singing the Tridentine (Latin) Mass.