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Tuesday, March 13, 2007

Comments

jimbo

I think the sign of peace is a distraction, and should be moved or not used.

Rita

Changing the time of this distraction would be a wonderful step in the right direction. Hopefully, the sign of peace will keep getting earlier and earlier in the Mass until it's on the Church steps, before the Mass even starts. 99% of the congregation finds it uncomfortable at best. It needs to go in my opinion.

anthony

My feelings are mixed on this. I think its a good idea, for me anyway it helps me make a connection with those around me, it helps me to feel like I am a part of the Church. But like He says, it is a distraction, its just not at the right place. I would like to see it done just before the priest comes up the isle.

Patrick

How'bout moving it to NEVER.

Donald

At St. Mary's, under Father Johnson's leadership, we did not include the sign of peace...for the "local custom" as prescribed in our parish...why? It WAS a distraction...we loved that it was excluded...along comes Bishop Brown and his collective minnions and they loaded us with this diatribe that the "sign of peace" was as old as the Church itself, practiced in the 4th century, etc., etc. Sine then Sign of Peace...it's truly such a distraction, I prefer not to sit in the pews so as not to do it, or at most, provide a "head nod" to contiguous parishioners...oh, for the days of Father Johnson who truly understood liturgical abuses and the piety necessary to engage in a prayerful Mass. Not to mention the reverence of kneeling!!!

Duffy

You think that's bad. For some odd reason, people in my parish hold hands during the Lord's Prayer. This is a new one for me and I was very startled the first time it happened (moved recently).

David1

I think the sign of peace is a wonderful demonstration of the Body of Christ. During our most holy Mass, we take a moment to reach out to the other members.

I would like it just after the penitential right and before the "Let Us Pray." After general absolution, we reach out to each other with clean hands and hearts.

I agree it's a distraction during the Eucharistic Prayer.

Somebody above said 99% of the people find it uncomfortable. Where did you get that number?

CoffeeMugPhilosophy

Hey Donald, the sign of peace is prevalent across the US. Really nothing to do with a particular bishop, no matter how you want to slice it! Your situation was integrated into the whole.

CoffeeMugPhilosophy

On another note, I go to a parish where the music director reads the WHOLE bulletin before the start of mass. Then directs people to stand and do the ShakeN'Bake and the MeetN'Greet, as part of standing before the priest starts the procession to the Altar.

So essentially its done twice.
Thrice if you count the habitual hand holding
during the Our Father.

Rarakiroa

I have no problem with the sign of peace. As a single person who is new to my parish (I just moved), it helps a lot in making that initial contact with my fellow parishioners - sort of breaks the ice.

But it is a distraction happening right after the Eucharistic prayer, especially with people running up and down the aisles to hug all their friends and relatives. I would like to see it moved to earlier in the mass.

What I don't understand is all that hand-holding during the Our Father. It seems to have sprung up in the last 5 years or so. Does anyone have any idea where that came from? I don't like to look curmudgeonly at Mass, but I don't hold hands. It seems a little silly to me.

Damian Thompson

The English Catholic bishops' conference couldn't bothered to issue a press release or a comment about this major document - see my Daily Telegraph blog here:

https://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/ukcorrespondents/holysmoke/march07/papalmass.htm

Patrick

What I don't understand is all that hand-holding during the Our Father. It seems to have sprung up in the last 5 years or so. Does anyone have any idea where that came from?

The hand-holding thing has been around for more than 5 years - at least in Southern California. The "orans" posture (hands outstretched to the sides, elbows bent, palms facing upward) is a very ancient prayer gesture. It is common in many religions. I have a Byzantine icon of the Blessed Mother using this gesture. The charismatic renewal people started using this posture years ago. Then it degenerated into hand-holding. From the charismatics it spread to the rest of the church. It is one of those things people just do because the people around them are doing it.

Rita

Dear Donald1, I got that figure from observing all the discomfort on the faces in my parish, when they have to stop adoring Our Lord on the altar and display an annoyed smile to their neighbor so they don't look like jerks.

James


" think the sign of peace is a wonderful demonstration of the Body of Christ."

---

I'm with David1 on this.

We are the body of Christ. Part of going to Mass is to connect many parts of the body with the other parts. We go out into the world with Christ in us, and Christ among us, and as part of his body.

James

Donald

Rita:

I'm not the one who asked the question about the 99% number...I believe it was David1...also, CoffeeMug...I should be internally grateful that I am not at your parish "love-in"...my point is simply this; because everyone's doing it (across the nation) does not, necessarily calibrate to a level of reverence. St. Mary's used to feel so special. The "Sign of Peace" is a microcosm, and, frankly a small one compared to other issues.

James


It always amazes me how an old man with gray hair can be ten times more firm than the average priest around where I live (where nothing, for so many of them, is actually 'for sure').

I always tell our sons it's no accident that Popes are old. They are close to meeting their Maker, and the allures of the world take on much less luster - whereas the hope for heaven becomes much more real.

James

CoffeeMugPhilosophy

level of reverence = following GIRM for the laity and not being hypocritcal, to on one hand, play liturgical police but then on another hand want your own custom liturgical practice in violation of the GIRM/norm.
But some just dont see that!

Philippus

Moving the sign of Peace may be a good idea, although to me it's a relatively small matter. (for example, I find unsuitable remarks during a homily much more distracting, and in itself the sign of peace doesn't strike me as inappropriate).

Holding hands during the Pater Noster is however a very strange thing. Happily I've yet to encounter a mass where it's done (I'm in Europe, and over here that element thankfully hasn't even been suggested yet, even in rather 'liberal' parishes I've seen while travelling).
While a Sign of Peace verbally, or in the form of a handshake, can still be dignified, I fail to see any dignified way of holding hands during Mass between people over the age of 5....

MARC BENNETTI

OH WELL THE GOOD OLE POPE ISN'T GOING TO CHANGE ANYTHING BUT HIS CLOTHES, BECUASE ITS STILL LEFT UP TO THE BISHOPS. NOW DO YOU HONESTLY THINK BISHOP BROWN AND CARDINAL MAHONEY WOULD TAKE UPON THEM SELF TO MAKE CNAGES FOR THE BETTER? LIKE PUTING THE HIGH MASS BACK IN? HECK NO!!! AND FORGET THOSE KNEELERS, BECAUSE THEY WANT THEM OUT.
HOW COME ONE CAN GO TO AN EASTERN CATHOLIC CHURCH THAT KEEPS WITH THE REAL TRADITIONAL MASSES AND KNEELING??

AFTER ALL THE HOGWASH AND READING OF WHAT THE POPE OFFERS, NOTHING HAS CHANGED!!!!!!!!

GOD SAVE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WHILE THERE STILL MAY BE JUST A TAD BIT OF SAVING THE CHURCH. BUT I DOUBT IT!!!

MARC

Patrick

NOW DO YOU HONESTLY THINK BISHOP BROWN AND CARDINAL MAHONEY WOULD TAKE UPON THEM SELF TO MAKE CNAGES FOR THE BETTER?

I am inclined to agree. The "reform of the reform" is a bust.

John

More do nothing by a do nothing, liberal, Vatican II loving church that could care less about faith and morals

So sad, leave it up to these horribly Bishops and Priests.

Another shameful act. The only solution now does seem to be SSPX, SSPV and other traditional groups who at least have the guts to do what is correct even in the face of ridicule. My in laws and cousins are correct, the church is in eclipse

Patrick

Let's not trash the pope. His papacy isn't over yet. We are lucky that Cardinal Ratzinger was elected pope. Actually, it wasn't luck, it was the Holy Spirit. It is just that I have doubts that "suggestions" will do any good.

On another blog, I read that this document is actually the product of a synod. Anything originating from a synod tends to be a bit watered-down and conciliatory.

O

I love the sign of the peace what I do not love is greeting the people around you following the commentator's opening welcome and before the announcement of the theme of today's Mass. I find this an unnecessary carry over from evangelical circles (for 20 years I was a Protestant minister). It takes away from

This past Sunday I worshiped as a guest in a place other than my home parish. There was no welcome wear people greeted each other. When we came to the sign of the peace it seemed to carry more meaning and was more reverent rather than just being a repeat of the greeting.

When praying the Lord's prayer I do not take the hand of one who offers it. I fail to see the meaning of holding hands during this prayer.

I admit, I am a grump when it comes to carryover stuff. After all, I converted for a reason(s).

As for the reform of the reform topic as a whole I must simply admit to being too new a Catholic to really comment. However...the longer I am a Catholic the less at home I feel in the New Order and the more I feel drawn to capital T tradition. This is quite a step as I began my Catholic walk (received Jan 2005) by often trumpeting my thanks for a Mass in the vernacular such that my family could understand and better make our transition. Now, I am less sure.

Our parish recently introduced a Liturgical Dance team and I admit I groaned, dear God, another carry over I though we were free of...


::thrive!
Owen
luminousmiseries.ca
onionboy.ca

Patrick

I hope I am not violating a rule of some sort by posting serial comments...but...

When praying the Lord's prayer I do not take the hand of one who offers it. I fail to see the meaning of holding hands during this prayer.

I knew a charismatic family in the 1980s-90s. My guess is they thought they were somehow conducting the Holy Ghost from person to person as electricity through a wire. It sounds crazy, but they had some stange ideas carried over from Pentecostal Protestantism.

...the longer I am a Catholic the less at home I feel in the New Order and the more I feel drawn to capital T tradition.

The traditional Latin liturgy represents a spirituality different from the new liturgy - just as the eastern liturgies represent a different spirituality. Some of us believe the traditional liturgy is "theologically correct."

Our parish recently introduced a Liturgical Dance team and I admit I groaned, dear God, another carry over I though we were free of...

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't liturgical dance prohibited?

A Simple Sinner

What is bothersome to me about the placing of the sign of peace in the modern rite is that it takes place after the consecration...

Perhaps if the sign of peace were implimented at the begining of the Mass before it began - for us to settle our grievances and disputes in the community BEFORE entering prayerful worship... But right after the consecration?

The priest(s), having just consecrated and handled the Eucharistic species, frequently leaves the altar to shake hands. Where previously great care was taken to ensure that not even a speck of the Eucharistic species is profaned, no such care is evidenced.

Having just consecrated the Eucharist, Catholics take their focus off the altar to hug and kiss and shake hands and socialize...

Many are the times I have been to a Mass where the altar - with the Eucharist present - is abandoned and left empty while the priest(s) go to the congregation to shake hands.

If we pray as we believe, am I being too simplisitc to think that this is not a great liturgical posture? I have been accused of having an infantile or legalistc or oversimplified ideal on this...

But if we believe that the Eucharist is Christ the Son of the Living God, why would we disrespect Him by not putting ALL of our attention on Him in the Eucharist?

TO date, I have not been offered explination that I can wrap my sensibilities around.

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