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« Traditional Latin Mass In The Archdiocese of Los Angeles? | Main | Fessio to Defend Benedict XVI in O.C. »

Wednesday, July 25, 2007

Comments

Jimbo

I just don't understand the ongoing pettiness. If the Mass is ridiculously over-filled, preventing members of the parish from attending, then I could understand the exhortation to the out-of-towners. But at least wait for that fact to to be established before saying anything; otherwise, it looks like petty pride on the part of authorities not wanting to look like the losers in the whole affair. I can't figure out any other reasons than these two for such an announcement. Did the announcement say why? I doubt it. It's either pettiness or very poor people management skills.

Atlanta Catholic

I find it interesting that the Diocese of Orange is **obsessed** with social justice for the poor immigrant who is only searching for a peaceful home. They even are compassionate to someone crossing the borders unlawfully, to seek tranquility and opportunity. Heaven forbid that a Catholic in the Diocese of Orange cross a street boundary to attend a Tidentine Mass at St. Mary's.
This is where they give themselves away. This showcases the Pharisaic pettiness that Bishop Tod Brown is about. They do not really care about social or spiritual justice. They care about power. The power that they **think** they have to be cruel, could be removed from them by God in a matter of seconds. How embarrassing! The Diocese of Orange looks as foolish and uncaring as the Los Angeles Archdiocese. Bishop Tod Brown does not fall too far from the Cardinal Mahony tree. NEWSFLASH!! Social justice includes kindness to everyone!!

the other Jimbo

This is silly. Anyone in good faith who wishes to attend the Tridentine ought to be welcome at St. Mary's.

Ronald

I don't know why I should be surprized considering that this response by the bishop is unfortunately all too typical among the spineless amreican bishops. No crack down on anticatholic catholic universities, no facing the real problem of homosexuality in seminaries and among the american priests (and episcopacy), watering down the Church's stand on abortion by catagorizing it as a small section under the huge umbrella of social justice, ignoring liturgical abuses, and so on; but when it comes to those rigid traditionalists well they need to be kept in line .....what a joke! This bishop is really just upset because the Pope is circumventing the amercian bishops and reiterating a basic truth about the Tridentine Mass which is VatII did not abolish the Mass of Pope Pius V.

My guess is that many seminarians will want to learn the Tridentine Rite but the amercian bishops will not allow it to be taught so there will not be many priests who could offer up a Tridentine Mass.

Rita

This directive has no chance of being enforced, short of cancelling the Tridentine Mass altogether at St. Mary's. True, it's just another attempt to marginalize whoever loves this Mass, but, the Pope has spoken.

Jeff Miller

I doubt if we will ever see this formally as a written directive. This totally flies in the face of the current edition of Canon Law that allows people to go to parishes other than their home parish. Besides Parish registration is not canonical either and is just a way for parishes to determine how many families are attending.

TM Lutas

This is a grand opportunity, if only you can see it. Bishop Brown's asking people to request local accommodation, if responded to properly, can lead to more services held in the TLM manner. You just have to coordinate things as well as your average car pool program. If you could have a dozen well attended TLM services every Sunday evenly spaced out across the diocese would this not be an improvement over the current situation?

So apply, apply, apply, and go to the TLM that's already running while you are waiting. What, exactly, is the problem with that?

joanne

"Let us generously open our hearts and make room for everything that the faith itself allows."
The heart's constriction is what's wrong with the restriction. Sure, they can apply, apply, apply, but shouldn't they be free to attend the TLM while they're waiting for more doors to open for them?

Patrick

Hey, Bishop Brown, crowded Masses are not a problem! Instead, try fixing the clergy sex abuse problem and the banal liturgies in the rest of your parishes!

Patrick

Maybe Bishop Brown is still hoping to sell the property. If St. Mary's by the Sea is filling a need for the whole diocese (TLM Masses), it it may not be so easy to justify closing the church.

If the problem were simply overcrowding, the solution is simple--add another Mass to the schedule. I wonder if he plans to hire bouncers.

carolg

I think TM Lutas is right in pointing out this is an opportunity for everyone to request the TLM at their home parish. I would love one at St. John's in Costa Mesa or the St. John's chapel on Balboa Island. Since I just had my second baby in two years a few weeks ago, I don't have time to do the organizing part but I'd love to join in on any efforts out there. If anyone has the energy to put something in motion, please let me know. I think we stand a good chance of getting one at St. John's in Costa Mesa. In the meantime I'll make sure to take advantage of the TLM at St. Mary's. If anyone says anything to me about not belonging there, I'll just tell them I travel there "just for the great homilies".

The position of the Bishop on this is just beyond silly. What a goofball.

The Griper

To me the idea goes against the whole principle of the Church being One holy apostolic Church. It is separating rather than unifying the church(the people) from each other.

A Simple Sinner

"My guess is that many seminarians will want to learn the Tridentine Rite but the amercian bishops will not allow it to be taught so there will not be many priests who could offer up a Tridentine Mass. "

Such seminarians are free to either apply to the FSSP or seek out the FSSP workshops offering those interested, direction in how to celebrate the ER.

The day the FSSP seminary was completed, it was too small - and an additional space was for seminarians was needed. In the mean time, and even SINCE the completion of the "new" wing of the seminary, senior seminarians have gracioously agreed to "double bunk" in rooms that had been designed to be single rooms.

NO, there will not be three priests per parish to offer this rite next week, but the numbers are growing.

Give thanks, and if possible, give alms!

Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter
Griffin Rd., PO Box 196
Elmhurst, PA 18416
phone: (570) 842-4000
fax: (570) 842-4001
e-mail: info@fssp.com

A Simple Sinner

"So apply, apply, apply, and go to the TLM that's already running while you are waiting. What, exactly, is the problem with that? "

TM -

It would take another Greek Catholic to understand this! Very sensible man!

3 weeks into the MP and two months before the implementation of said, it is almost amazing to me how many forget where we were 10, 20, 30 years ago!

Get out there and make it happen!

Simple

Thomistic

Although I recognize that some people view Bishop Brown's rule as an opportunity for more Tridentine Masses, here's why I see potential problems:

1) I don't believe there are enough people in most other parishes who will be able to ask for a Tridentine Mass. I think handfuls of people may ask, but they will be told there aren't enough of them to warrant adding a Mass to the schedule or turning a scheduled Mass into a TLM.

2) I don't think many priests in the Diocese of Orange can say Mass in Latin or would be comfortable doing so. It's not just that they don't know how to do the TLM. It's that they will not be comfortable praying out loud in Latin and reading out loud in Latin. That's one reason why most parishes don't have a Latin Novus Ordo (well, that and a general sense that Latin is a dead language nobody understands and which inhibits full participation in the liturgy). Yes, in the TLM there is less that the priest must audibly say in Latin, but I do still think a discomfort with Latin due to almost complete unfamiliarity will give most priests in Orange the out they need to be able to say they don't have a qualified priest to celebrate the TLM.

3) In both of the above instances, people will be told they needn't feel bad: they can go to John Paul II Center at practically the crack of dawn or to the Mission San Juan Capistrano at 8:00 AM (where there are only about 100 seats available) so they shouldn't complain that they're being denied the TLM – it's just not available for them at their parish, and the more convenient noon Mass at St. Mary's by the Sea is for parishioners only.

Pax,

Thomistic

Patrick

I don't believe there are enough people in most other parishes who will be able to ask for a Tridentine Mass. I think hndfuls of people may ask, but they will be told thee aren't enough of them to warrant adding a Mass to the schedule or turning a scheduled Mass into a TLM.

Thomistic, this is exactly what I am thinking. Bishops like Brown are figuring out ways to contain or control the Motu Proprio situation. The people who desire the Tridentine Mass must be divided and marginalized as much as possible.

joanne

Maybe "visiting", inviting your friends to "visit" and reminding them to apply at their parishes is the answer.

R

Er ... if you regularly attend Mass there, what exactly is wrong with *becoming* a parishioner? This shouldn't exactly be a big deal. I can't bring myself to be up in arms about this statement.

Patrick

R, I hope you correct that parish registration is open to everyone. However, it has been my experience that one is not allowed to register with a parish if one does not live within the geographic boundaries of that parish.

In the quote above, the pastor mentions the geographic restriction. Over the last eighteen years, I have not witnessed a single instance of Mass attendance being restricted to registered parishioners or unregistered "geographic" parishioners.

These days it is quite common for people to attend the parish of their choice. If the priest at your local parish is dancing around the sanctuary in leotards, you find another place to go to Mass.

Andrzej

My source heard from the lips of a highly placed monsignor in the Los Angeles Archdiocese, right after the Motu, that there is "no interest" among the majority of L.A. Catholics in bringing back the TLM. Even if the interest were there (the thinking goes), the TLM is problematic because the Tridentine hasn't been "taught" there for 40 years.

My source also says that the rotation rumor –- the idea that there could be a TLM that rotates among parishes in the L.A. Archdiocese -- is hearsay among the SF Valley traditionalist community. There's no hard evidence that such a thing is actually under consideration.

Interestingly, the hierarchy in the Diocese of Orange is absolutely terrified that there will be TOO MUCH interest in the TLM, and there will be a stampede by people abandoning the tired, banal liturgies in their home parishes, complete with strumming garage bands, and heading for islands of light where the TLM is celebrated. Places like St. Mary’s in Huntington Beach.

How does one reconcile those opposing views from L.A. and Orange? Which one is it? Is the TLM of “no interest” or is it going to be wildly popular?

I think Pope Benedict has confounded people like Brown and Mahony more than anything else.

Also, how on earth could Bishop Brown enforce the restrictions he has proposed? Would they have security checkpoints in the vestibule? Would they make congregants wear parish I.D. badges? Would a parishioner straying from his or her home parish set off bells and claxons, and be hustled out by vitamin-packed ushers? Of course not.

If worshipers were forced to register, those in the country illegally -- the "undocumented immigrants" -- might end up being documented. We couldn’t have that.

I think the talk about restricting people to their home parish is a lot of hot air –- just like the notion that the Tridentine Mass actually required a bishop’s permission. Our Supreme Pontiff exploded the idea that the TLM had ever been outlawed, abrogated or required a bishop’s permission.

TMLutas

Thanks for the kind words all. Some, however, seem to have missed part of my message and are worrying more than necessary. If I might quote myself for emphasis "You just have to coordinate things as well as your average car pool program."

This means that if you fear your bishop might be problematic "apply, apply, apply" via a clearinghouse. When two or three adjoining parishes each have groups too small to justify a TLM, combine the groups and voila you have a large enough group all applying at one parish. If they are denied, the MP has laid out an appropriate appeals process. I cannot imagine how a bishop could hope to win such an appeal so one would have to posit both ill will and stupidity for things to get that far. I don't think so.

Since you have run things through a non-diocese controlled clearinghouse that operates openly, transparently, and with good sense and charity, the poor bishop can be relieved in good conscience of the duties of match-making and apply himself to other tasks than maximizing the number of TLMs on offer in his diocese. These bishops have a lot to do after all and there's nothing inherently requiring the ministerial priesthood about sorting out where best to show up for TLM (which parishes to apply to).

joanne

Ah, TML, that sounds sensible.
Patrick, I rarely laugh at this blog, but you got me with "If the priest at your local parish is dancing around the sanctuary in leotards, you find another place to go to Mass."
Even if there were a LAW against leaving one's parish, who could argue against a "leotard-clad" amendment?

Patrick

Joanne,

I forgot to mention the band playing show tunes. :o)

Jean

I am sorry, and I hope not to ruffle any one's feathers but if so many of us have so much energy to devote to this non essential issue do you wonder why the world does not take many christians seriously?

Atlanta Catholic

Lighten up Jean! The world did not take Jesus seriously either. How blessed you are to not identify with the frustration of people who have witnessed incredible evil and liturgical goofiness. You should be happy for Christians who do see the light and have a sense of humor left. Every era has a Jean to raise the consciencetiousness of mankind. Are you a member of one of those **vibrant** parishes?

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