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Thursday, January 24, 2008

Comments

CatholicCrusader

This is a pretty nice little story. You can’t blame Father Martin Tran for keeping mum. I think he’s happy to see the TLM being celebrated once again at St. Mary’s by the Sea and attendance at Mass recovering. I think he would like to be left alone so he can focus simply on being a good pastor. The parish as a whole seems to be showing signs of bouncing back, and the priests and people seem tacitly and prayerfully relieved that Bishop Tod Brown of Orange hasn’t been horning in. This is more like what parish life should be, and most certainly was like under the pastoral leadership of the saintly Father Daniel Johnson.

The bishop, for his part, has been lying low. He’s probably licking his wounds in the wake of the storm of scandals over Monsignor John Urell, which recently blew through the diocese. Also, our Holy Father took a lot of wind out of the sails of progressives by making clear that the TLM had never been forbidden and that he would like to see it made freely available.

Pope Benedict has had a few choice comments about liturgical music, too, and bishops like Tod Brown are probably beading up with perspiration and girding themselves for the next wave that may buffet their most cherished progressive initiatives, i.e., goofy, eccentric liturgies with priests who behave like game show hosts, and lots of Protestant “praise” hymns like what they peddle on late-night cable TV.

I think that the more people see of the solemnity and sacred beauty of the traditional Catholic Mass, the more they will hunger for it, and this scares the holy heck out of Brown and his buddy, Cardinal Roger Mahony.

I’ve also noticed a decidedly more traditional approach at St. John the Baptist parish in Costa Mesa. There, I’ve recently heard the traditional Kyrie sung, and the Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus Dei sung in Latin. The organ is played beautifully, and there’s no garage band up in the sanctuary. One of the Norbertines comes out to help distribute Communion at Mass, like Father Mackin does at St. Mary’s, so there are fewer lay “Eucharistic ministers” hamming it up in the sanctuary.

Unfortunately, Tod Brown is a little like Bill Clinton in that he is always hungry for the spotlight. Needy people like that always want to bring attention to themselves or make the narrative about them, so I wonder how long Brown will be able to resist meddling or disrupting things at St. Mary’s. Recent experience has taught that if things are going well — pastors are being holy and pastoral, people are praying and a sense of the sacred is being restored — it’s time to look for Tod Brown to disrupt things. He can’t leave well enough alone. If he could, he would have left things the way they were at St. Mary’s after Father Johnson retired.

Michelle

I have been attending a Traditional Latin Mass for several months. I can say it is a very peaceful experience. All I have ever known was the Ordinary Form and not always done according to the rubrics or hymns that were herectical like " I myself am the bread of life You and I are the bread of life..." or just plain stupid clangy songs that sound like " Love American style" When I experienced the Ordinary Form said according to the rubrics ( about a dozen or so times) with The Kyrie, latin thrown in with inncence and bells and only altar boys and no extra ordinary ministers and you can kneel for Holy Communion at an altar rail. It is quite beautiful and I would be happy and peaceful if every Ordinary Form was said that way. But since it is not I Thank you Holy Father for allowing the Extraordinary Form or should I say thank you for prohibiting Bishops from not allowing it! I can actually see why people were in uproar over the changes back in the 1960's let alone the crap the goes on in most parishes in this country now! Long Reign Pope Bennedict XVI!!!

Susan T.

Catholic Crusader, actually Bishop Brown is behaving worse than Bill Clinton. Bishop Brown is a Roman Catholic Bishop and will be held far more acountable for everything he does or doesn't do!

Alan

Fr. Holquin needs a personal meeting with the Holy Father and start explaining what he just said in this article to His Holiness. Iam sure the Holy Father will educate Fr. Holquin in liturgical matters. Better yet Bishop Brown should also join in the meeting perhaps he too can learn a few liturgical directives regarding the Ordinary Form of The Holy Mass! Then the following week Cardinal Roger Mahony can have a meeting and explain to The Holy Father about his liturgical abuse filled masses and heretical speakers such as Edwina Gately promoter of new age and witchcraft rituals, Sr.Barbra Fiand known for promoting women priestess, Dr. Greer G. Gordon known for promoting homosexual marriages that is just name three out of close to hundred speakers and workshops that will be conducted at the end of Febuary and first weekend in March this year at The Los Angeles Religious Education Congress held at The Anahiem Convention Center which happens to be in the dioceses of Orange. So I guess Bishop Brown should just hang out for a week at the Vatican until the Cardinal arrives. Oh! I can see it now. Cardinal Mahoney will show he has several token orthodox speakers like Jason Everet from Catholic Answers . Whoopie!!! I bet someone had to lobbey Sr. Edith Pendergrast and crew to get him and the few others in! Just like Fr. Grocchel some years ago. Fr. Grocchel said publically he woulld not be invited back because about what he was going to say to the audience. I was there it was awesome . Father was right, he wasn't invited back! Someone on this Blog needs to do a complete expose of The Los Angeles Religious Education Congress. Many of the liturgical abuses and heretical teachings come out of this place every year!

Alan

I almost forgot to mention Fr. Timothy Radcliffe and Rev. Gerald Coleman will also be speaking at this Congress! Iam sure this blog already has info on these two.

Atlanta Catholic

Pray for Father Art Holquin. He is having a difficult time accepting the Holy Father's allowance of the TLM. Father Holquin is not being honest regarding the reason the Holy Father gave.

Father Holquin should be familiar with the abuses to the laity and the liturgy. Many Catholics in the Diocese of Orange have experienced Father Art's cruelty to Traditional Catholics. We continue to pray for the conversion of Father Art Holquin. We would love Father Holquin to show compassion and love to Traditional Catholics in the same manner that he shows love to iguanas and dogs, for photo ops and beast blessings. We love animals too but c'mon Father Art.

Father Art claims that there is not a big clammer for the Mass. Of course not! Father Art knows he has to talk this way or he would not have been handed his cushy post. The same rings true for anyone caught promoting this Mass. That would be the kiss of death for their "career"...whoops, I meant vacation, whoops again, I mean vocation.

Father Holquin needs to accept that the Holy Father is allowing the generous application of the TLM, precisely due to the abuses of clergy. The Holy Father even said, "He has experienced this abuse"!

Guess who Bishop Brown sent to help fix the Halloween Mass fiasco? You guessed it. Father Art Holquin, lover of lizards, taunter of Traditionalists. Father Art Holquin loves Father Timothy Radcliffes teachings more than the authentic church teachings. No wonder Father Art Holquin cleverly dissed the TLM in this article. The wolf is still guarding the hen house.

Arnold Vincent

You "traditionalists" who love the tridentine mass are like the isralites who want to go back to egypt when already liberated by moses. we real traditionalist catholics who love the vatican II mass in the vernacular are liberated and are worshipping better now and it nourishes our spirituality. the world over the issue is settled, catholics in the majority are for the vatican II mass and would not care to have the tridentine mass reinstituted. the tridentine mass will eventually die a natural death, you bet. why be so encapsulated in this blog among yourselves which results in a dangerous inbleeding. read other blog which are againt the tridentine mass, for example, fr. joseph o'leary's blog. come and read my dear brother and sisters lost catholics.

Atlanta Catholic

Arnold,

Did you mean dangerous "inbreeding" or "liberal inbleeding" over the wounds from the "Wide and Generous Application of the TLM"?

Patrycke

Arnold,

I have a better analogy. Traditionalist Catholics are like Israelites who refuse to worship the golden calf of the majority.

Mark Jacobson

Arnold -

The Novus Ordo is a liturgical experiment that has wreaked havoc and devastation on the Catholic world. It will end someday soon, of that we can be sure, for the Lord has promised that He will not abandon His Church. The Traditional Mass, which we have had for over 1500 years, will come back in all its glory and wipe out this 40 year old product of 1960's rebellion, the Novus Ordo. And other Traditions which were jettisoned after the Council must be brought back, too. You are right to bring up the Israelites' 40 years in the desert - our "desert wandering" is almost over, and we are on the verge of entering the Promised Land of Liturgical Restoration and Renewal of Tradition. The Springtime promised us by Vatican II is about to begin, despite the 40 years of winter that immediately followed the council. God is beginning to do mighty deeds through His servant, Pope Benedict!

Dan Hunter

Arnold,
Wanna give up a little marcus of queensbury?
I betcha ya don't got the stones to lay a little rumble down man to man.
Let me know where I can meet you and I'll woop some common sense into your uninformed keester.
Bring it on trog!

CatholicCrusader

This guy named Arnold either is a put-on, or he’s the ignorant, in-bred knuckle-dragger (I think he was talking about inbreeding, rather than internal bleeding – but I can’t be sure.) I’m going to go with the prank theory, since no one would seriously attempt to mock the TLM and its supporters with such a goofy, misspelling- and malapropism-filled post. Maybe he’s attempting to do a clever send-up of the way traditionalist Catholics are so often portrayed by our militantly progressive brethren in the Church.

Lisa Noonan

Can someone answer this question?

Why are so many of the "progressives" so afraid of the Latin Mass? There is a faction within the Church who, if you even refer to it, become militant and spew vitriol. I don't understand it. I don't see it as hate, I see it as fear... and I see it only amongst a certain age group. In my experience, those my age are not so rigid.

If these rabid "progressives" can't open their minds to the Tridentine and, at the very least, the history it represents, how can they claim to love and care for the Church and her faith?

Dan Hunter

Lisa Noonan,
I believe much of the malevolence that is leveled at the Tridentine Mass by the aging progressives is because the Tridentine Mass represents true orthodoxy and the Magisterial Teaching of the Church that cannot be watered down to fit their immoral lifestyle.
Because the Tridentine Mass embodies the highest form of catechesis in the Latin Rite Church it is among other things the greatest vehicle to support everything that the Church has always taught.
The order of Mass cannot be altered or ad libbed to fit some cafeteria catholics personal agenda.
And that is what the liberals find most alarming.
God bless you.

Rita

I think Arnold's provocative post is designed to elicit reactions which he dearly hopes will be mean and hateful. Then he can continue to say how awful those traditionalists are. Arnold, it isn't about how mean or nice people are. That's why The Tridentine Mass is so beautiful. The people can't mess it up with silly sentimentalism and worse. This extraordinary form allows the faithful to be immersed as much as is possible on earth in God alone with all of His Attributes, as well as our perpetual wretchedness and complete dependence upon Him. That is very hard for people like Arnold to sit with.

Khaled

Does anyone know who the celebrating priest was at this EF mass at St. Mary's?

Was it one of the Norbertine Fathers?

If so, which one?

CatholicCrusader

I think that the militant progressives lack an understanding of or, worse, wish to confuse or deflect understanding of the Mass as a little bit of heaven touching down on earth. Dr. Scott Hahn’s book, “The Lamb’s Supper,” explores and explains this concept. The TLM is the Holy Mass in its most full and beautiful expression, with choirs of angels in attendance — a sight which most certainly is utterly terrifying and devastating to Satan. The devil cannot avoid the facts and pretend that Christ has not triumphed once and for all over sin and evil. On the other hand, souls who attend goofy “progressive” Masses, where the stench of the world is allowed to infuse the three-ring circus atmosphere with garage-band music and Halloween costumes make soft targets for the demons, and these souls can be picked off more easily. This goes a long way toward explaining the hissing from hell that we hear wherever and whenever the TLM is promoted or celebrated. Satan himself is opposed to the Tridentine Mass because it rubs his hideous face in his ignominious failure and Christ’s ultimate triumph!

Rita

Crusader, I believe you hit the nail on the head. Long live Christ the King!

Giorgio Piccoli - from Verona -Italy

This morning, I have pray in S.Pio V's Latin Mass in "Santa Toscana Church". Faith, devotion, gregorian sing...Arnold, why your fear? Of we traditionalist? But you have the majority, the clercs, the religious power, yet you know that Jesus stay to take again in her hand the her Church, after a crisis of 30 years...
Post Scriptum: my american brothers and sisters, excuse mi for my english...thanks!

Atlanta Catholic

Hi Giorgio Piccoli,

What time was the Mass at "Santa Toscana Church?" It sound beautiful. Tell us about the crisis of faith that you have witnessed. Don't worry about your English.

Giorgio Piccoli - from Verona -Italy

Dear Atlanta Catholic (you are a review?), the Latin Mass is every day, in Verona. There is the Fraternity S.Pio X, too, in other place, one time at week, at sunday.Your question about the crisis of faith: mean of catholics, no personal, thank.
You ask and I answer.
Love from Verona

Jimbo

Well, at least this debacle appears to be ending. Thank God.

We now know how "accepting" and "tolerant" these opposers are: they are tolerant of their own absolute nonsense and craziness, but they are significantly less tolerate of traditional/orthodox practice.

I don't particularly like the Latin Mass because I can't understand it, although I can't help notice the VAST difference in the attaire and comportment of attendees & the more profound appreciation/feeling of the sacredness of the Mass. But I'd never insist that people can only have Mass "my" way. I mean, how can something be around for 1500 years and be useless or so easily jettisoned? That borders on insane, dangerous, and unwise.

I wouldn't mind having a Mass in English that more closely adheres-reflects the Latin Mass form. Does that make any sense?

Rita

Jimbo,
If you follow along the Mass book, there is the English translation. And since the Mass is exactly the same time after time, it becomes easy to understand, even to where you will know what the Latin means.
Then you will grow to love it. When I attend the Novus Ordo, it is increasingly harder for me to stay focused because of all the variation. It's not that I can't, it's just harder. There are distractions. I don't know about you but I'm distracted all day long. When I go to Mass, I want it to be as easy and peaceful as possible. Thank you Pope Benedict for making the Bishops allow this Mass.

Dan Hunter wrote "I believe much of the malevolence that is leveled at the Tridentine Mass by the aging progressives is because the Tridentine Mass represents true orthodoxy and the Magisterial Teaching of the Church that cannot be watered down to fit their immoral lifestyle."

I was raised in the Novus Ordo Mass for lack of other options, though I am not fond of it, that was all I knew. And I don't believe that I live an immoral lifestyle. Perhaps I'm a victim of Vatican II, I have no clue. I do attend the Latin Mass at Our Lady of Perpetual Help, which I absolute adore. Just thought I'd comment :-)

Sorry, on second reading...perhaps Dan was referring to the immoral lifestyle of the aging progressives who brought out the Novus Ordo. I would still like some clarification, Dan some help?

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