Forever A Child

Nescire autem quid antequam natus sis acciderit, id est semper esse puerum."

"Not to know what happened before you were born is to be forever a child."
~Cicero

Marcus Tullius Cicero did not have Mark Dempsey, President of the Shamrock Club of Columbus Ohio, in mind when he wrote this line - BUT HE COULD HAVE. This is Dempsey's picture below.

Read the article below and pay particular attention to where Mr. Dempsey says:

"It's not a sin to celebrate your Irish culture," countered Mark Dempsey, the club's president.

"Actually, you're born Irish first," he said, "and then you're baptized Catholic."

My G*d, does this man have no conception of the inseperable linkage between the Irish and the Roman Catholic Church? Of this union borne out of centuries of British Protestant oppression of the Irish?

The e-mail address for the club of which Mr. Dempsey is President is:

shamrockclub1936@yahoo.com

If you are Irish and Catholic, e-mail Mr. Dempsey and tell him what you think.

________________________

St. Patrick's Day Too Wild for Holy Week?

By MEGHAN BARR, AP

COLUMBUS, Ohio (Feb. 20) - That famous saint named Patrick will have his green-drenched party this year, but it's unclear when the guests are supposed to arrive.

For the first time since 1940, St. Patrick's Day will fall during Holy Week, the sacred seven days preceding Easter.
Because of the overlap, liturgical rules dictate that no Mass in honor of the saint can be celebrated on Monday, March 17, according to the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. But a few Roman Catholic leaders are asking for even more moderation in their dioceses: They want parades and other festivities kept out of Holy Week as well.

Bishop J. Kevin Boland of the Diocese of Savannah, Ga., wrote to practically every agency in his city, from the Chamber of Commerce to the Board of Education, saying the diocese was changing the date of its celebration this year. In response, the citywide Irish festival was moved to Friday, March 14, when schools will close and bagpipe-driven parties will carry into the streets.

More than half a million people stream into the Southern city for the festival, one of the nation's largest St. Patrick's Day affairs, said Bret Bell, Savannah's public information director. Savannah bars will be open March 17, but no organized events will be held that day, he said.

"The city has a very strong Irish Catholic community, a very traditional Irish Catholic community," Bell said. "They attend Mass regularly. And the last thing they want to do is get in the bad graces of the Catholic Church."

Philadelphia has also moved its parade date to avoid giving offense, and Milwaukee is hitting the streets sooner than usual, too.

But in Columbus, the Shamrock Club is going ahead with its March 17 parade, drawing protests from the local bishop. A handful of Irish-American politicians have lined up behind church leaders, breaking with tradition by refusing to march in the parade.

In a letter last fall, the Catholic Diocese of Columbus told the Shamrock Club, the group that organizes the parade, that Bishop Frederick Campbell wanted "all observances honoring St. Patrick" - religious or otherwise - removed from Holy Week.

"It's not a sin to celebrate your Irish culture," countered Mark Dempsey, the club's president.

"Actually, you're born Irish first," he said, "and then you're baptized Catholic."

Not all Columbus Irish groups agree. Members of the local chapter of the Ancient Order of Hibernians, a national Irish Catholic organization, will skip the parade and will instead join the March 15 parade in Dublin, a Columbus suburb.

In New York and Boston, with legendary St. Patrick's events planned by the cities' large Irish communities, bishops are taking a hands-off approach, saying the church has no part in planning civic celebrations.

The Archdiocese of New York, which has St. Patrick as a patron saint, will hold the liturgical celebration for St. Patrick on March 14. Cardinal Edward Egan will then say Mass on Monday, the same day as the parade, and will review the procession from the steps of St. Patrick's Cathedral, archdiocesan spokesman Joseph Zwilling said.

Boston's parade remains set for Sunday, March 16, which is Palm Sunday and the first day of Holy Week.

Other public dustups over St. Patrick's Day have erupted in past years, including a protracted fight between gay Irish groups and city leaders in New York and Boston over the right to march in the parades, which the Catholic Church has steadfastly opposed.

But a calendar conflict is a rare event: Holy Week won't clash with St. Patrick's Day again until 2160. This year's peculiar schedule also sees the feast day of St. Joseph - honored by Catholics as the husband of the Virgin Mary - celebrated March 15, four days early.

Italian enclaves in many U.S. cities mark St. Joseph's with their own parades, but not on the level inspired by his Irish counterpart, so that shift hasn't produced any public grousing.

The St. Patrick's Day clash has a touch of the Christmas commercialism debate, about a holiday whose religious roots are tangled up in decidedly secular traditions. In most St. Patrick's traditions, parades are intertwined with Mass.

"It's kind of a test of clerical power, in a way," said Mike Cronin, co-author of "The Wearing of the Green: History of St. Patrick's Day." "I think there's a real issue then around organizing committees saying, 'Do we need the church, or do we not?"'

The U.S. remains one of the few countries in the world to retain any religious traces of St. Patrick's Day, Cronin said. In Ireland, where the government sponsors the Dublin parade, the holiday has morphed into an arts festival that draws millions of people, he said.

Recognizing that, bishops there have moved the feast of the nation's patron saint to March 15 this year. March 17 will remain an official Irish day off work and the Dublin parade will go on as scheduled.

Had Ireland's bishops shown the same insistence as some of their American counterparts, Cronin said, their comments almost certainly would have been ignored.

"It'd be like the (American) bishops arguing to move Super Bowl Sunday," he said.

The conflict is uncomfortable for some Irish-American Catholics. Franklin County Treasurer Ed Leonard bowed out of the Columbus parade but hopes a resolution might be reached.

"We wouldn't be celebrating St. Patrick's Day," he said, "were it not for the religious component of it."

Associated Press writers Clare Trapasso in New York City and Shawn Pogatchnik in Dublin contributed to this report. 2008-02-21 08:52:42

_____________________

God Bless the Most Reverend Frederick F. Campbell - Bishop of Columbus, Ohio!

Comments

[Jimbo]

God forbid we skip one day of drinking and merry-making this year in favor of the Church's calendar.

It's comedy. People want their Saints without their Saints' Church!!

[Bev]

Oh these Celts are too deliciously predictable in their arrogance. This article takes me back to every blow and slur I received as one of the few ROMAN Catholics who survived a childhood among the SW Side Irish of Chicago.

Well boo, hoo hoo Mr. Dempsey. Too few days left in the calendar for you and your druid clan to get drunk?

For the record we ITALIANS do NOT simply "parade" on St. Joseph's Day. We set up beautiful, tasty St. Joseph Tables after celebrating a Mass in his honor from which we feed the poor and share with our neighbors. Alcohol - fabulous Italian wine -- is consumed as it should be in moderation and as a complement to the meal. Our feast was moved due to March 19th falling on Tenebrae and you don't hear any grousing coming from my gente.

The article says: "Italian enclaves in many U.S. cities mark St. Joseph's with their own parades, but not on the level inspired by his Irish counterpart, so that shift hasn't produced any public grousing."

St. Joseph, the foster Father of Jesus, has no "counterpart" among the Irish! It was Joseph's yes that kept Jesus from being viewed as a "fitz" ---in the true meaning of that word --- by the Nazareth community.

And as for our Italo American celebrations being "not on the level" of those of Mr. Dempsey and his ilk. After many years watching March 17th festivities in this very celtic Chicago, I am proud to say that indeed we are not down there in the gutter level where the Dempseys and their kind puke up green beer in "honor" of their "saint".

Deo gratias.

[UDFlyingCatholic]

Easy with the Catholic culture mud slinging! Irish, Italian, German, American or whatever...we are all ROMAN Catholics. Isn't that one of the glories of the Faith--united beyond culture or nation.

It is not an Irishman who sins when he drinks too much on St. Patrick's Day; rather, it is a Catholic who sins. Sure, heritage and tradition are important but they shouldn't be use to lable a group or further divide the Church more than it already is.

"I believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church..."

[Patrycke]

Wow, I didn't realize that such ethnic Catholic rivalries existed in the U.S. I guess I am lucky that I grew up ethnically mixed in ethnically mixed areas of California. I have no strong ethnic ties or indentification. I consider Catholic saints part of my heritage no matter what ethnic group claims them as their own. St. Patrick was a Roman Briton -- not Irish. But, I guess "tribal" conflicts are inevitable. I remember those Irish kids from Catholic school because they were some of the meanest kids in the school. :o)

Nevertheless, the common bond of sharing the Catholic Faith can be greater than ethnicity. During the lead-up to the Mexican-American War, newly arrived Irish immigrants were conscripted into the U.S. Army. They were promised all sorts of things. But, they most often received harsh treatment and discrimination from the WASP superiors.

When the Mexican-American War broke out Zachary Taylor's army invaded Mexico from the North. Unfortunately, Taylor's army was, in large part, made up of rough, frontier, criminal types who were interested in adventure, violence and war booty. The officers could not control them. Horrible atrocities were committed against innocent Mexican peasants by U.S. soldiers (rape, murder, etc.). These same soldiers, who were Protestant, desecrated Catholic churches in Mexico. They would use statues for target practice and stable their horses in the churches.

Some of the newly arrived Irish soldiers were aghast. It was the sort of treatment they had received from the English for so long. Some of them decided to switch sides and fight for their fellow Catholics on the Mexican side. They became known as the St. Patrick's Battalion. Among the San Patricios, there were also Catholics from other European countries (Germans, Swiss, etc.).

The St. Patrick's Battalion was one of the most effective fighting units on the Mexican side. They had received good training in the U.S. As Mexico succumbed to the U.S. invasion, many of the San Patricios were captured and executed in a brutal and humiliating manner. Most Americans have never heard of them, but in Mexico they are remembered and there are monuments dedicated to them.

The incident raises interesting questions about were one's loyalty ultimately lies.

Although I am not Irish, I need to get one of those shilelaghs for my walks. And Paul Brady is cool. :o)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=cBGkhPx529g&feature=related

[joanne]

I was going to celebrate, personally, the Thursday prior to the Feast, unless my diocese wants us to skip the celebration this year. It's an Irish sin to waste a good pint of Guinness, but more importantly, I doubt that St Patrick would want anyone to disobey the Church on "his" behalf. Slainte!

[american aquarium drinker]

i bet mr. dempsey's irish catholic grandmother would slap him upside the head if she heard about this. without the church there would be no st. patrick's day to celebrate. he is a disgrace to the irish race.

[Jeffrey]

Bev has proven to the class that racism is not always evil...sometimes it's unintentionally hilarious.
Get a grip, Bev.

[Bernie]

Forget the race what matters is the ONE TRUE FAITH. One in Faith. No color no race.

[Bev]

UD write "Sure, heritage and tradition are important but they shouldn't be use to lable (sic) a group or further divide the Church more than it already is."

Too bad you weren't around when the Irish of Chicago's St. Patrick's Church told (Saint) Mother Francesca Cabrini to take her "dagoes" to the basement if they wanted to have Mass. The same folks whose grandkids fell all over themselves making sure Masses and classes were "bilingual" as long as the lingua was Spanish not Latin or Italian.

As for the San Patricios, the Boston Irish of 1860 would send a regiment to Italy to fight against the Italians trying to unite our patria claiming they (the IrishAmer) were protecting the Pope and smearing all Italians who desired a unified Italy under King Vittorio Emanuele as "freemasons". I lived in a parish which treated their IRA guerilla cousins as martyrs for a unified Ireland while the celts in the classroom still taught the Risorgimento in Italy as a "tragedy". Arrogance and hypocrisy aka freedom for me not thee.

I don't give a damn when Daley chooses to dye the river green or have his minions march down State Street. But I do feel for the poor fish in our Chicago River. San Francesco d'Assisi pray for those who are forcibly dyed green.

[UDFlyingCatholic]

Bev,

You're missing the point.

I'm not making excuses for Irish Catholics, or any Catholics for that matter. The point is, we are all Roman Catholics--no matter where from. The kind of division and contempt you talk about in your comments happens only when our unity in the Faith is forgotten.

If you want to do something about the Irish in Chicago who attacked your Italian heritage, I suggest you forgive them.

"ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH"

[KT]

Is liturgical rule only stating that no mass be celebrated in St. Patrick's honor? Or is it that no mass in addition to no celebrations are to take place? I'm confused. I thought only SOME Bishops were asking that additional measures be taken and that other celebrations should occur on different dates. If that's the case, then is Dempsey really the jerk some say he is? From what I understand, the Shamrock Club is in fact NOT having a St. Patrick Mass. If that's what liturgical rule is requiring, then he isn't going against the church's rules. Sure the Bishop may be requesting it, but are we to always listen to the Bishop's opinion? That's what it comes down to or EVERY Bishop in every city would be asking people to not partake in festivities. I'll admit that I am ignorant in regards to many of the church's rules. I'm asking these questions in order to be enlightened. SO, if you reply to my questions, try to do it in a way that God and the church's teachings would want you to-not to use it as a way to insult me just as many have in regards to Mr. Dempsey. Someone even pointed out he was using it as a reason to drink green beer and puke. Most people know that someone who truly embraces their Irish culture is going to be the last one to partake in drinking green beer or eating those silly green scrambled eggs at a fake Irish pub that isn't owned by an Irish person and has nothing to do with the Irish or the Irish culture. Quite frankly, that whole St. Patrick's Day venue is stereotypical and insulting.

[Joseph-USA]

As an Irish kid born on St. Joseph's Day, I had no idea that Saint Joseph was "Italian" until reading the above posts five minutes ago. Maybe that's why I was able to marry an Italian girl. ; - )

[Patrycke]

Joseph,

When I attended Catholic schools in California there were so many kids who were half Italian and half Irish. However, I think some of our older eastern cities have a history of ethnic enclaves and rivalries.

An author named Richard Price wrote a book called the "Wanderers." The novel was based on his experience growing up in an insular Italian neighborhood in New York. The novel was made into a movie in 1979 (featuring an actor named Ken Wahl). When I saw that movie I was horrified. It was very depressing.

By the way, I am not slamming Italians. I like the Italians and the Irish. :o)

Hello al. My name is MArk Dempsey and I have been reading some of the comments. Misinformation is good fodder for some but allow me to send some real information. The Shamrock Club is hosting a civic celebration for the Irish in COlumbus, devoid (unfortunately) of a feast Mass for St. Patrick.

The Shamrock Club is no longer a strictly Catholic orginization. It's a social Irish Club dedicated to promoting a positive image of the many Irish aspects of our culture.

If the decision to move all celebrations outside Holy Week were consistant across America and beyond, the Shamrock Club may have made a differnet conclusion.

I'm certain that we will all be better people for not being so judgemental.

[Joanne Kirves]

God Bless Mark and his sense of humor! Everybody without a sense of humor should go to church and pray for one!