Eavesdropping on Monsignor

My fiance and I were scheduled to have lunch with two of her friends a couple of weeks ago, and they stood us up. When the waitress came by and asked if we wanted to relocate to a smaller table, I said "no." My reason, far from being a desire not to have to move was that I was eavesdropping on a conversation at a table adjacent to ours.

At that table were seated two priests, both in mufti, one of whom is the "old Monsignor" who's the Pastor at my parish in Fresno. They were having a serious conversation about the results of the recent presidential election and how the "right" was unjustly trying to say that "one could not be a good catholic and vote for Obama." What caught my attention was Monsignor's stentorian voice as he said "life is about more than just abortion." I could feel my bile rise as he continued:

"the abortion rate was higher under both Presidents Reagan and Bush I than it was under President Clinton."

I really think that if my fiance had not been there I would have broached all protocol and confronted him - All I could think was "Not another closeted Obama supporting priest ala Art Holquin." This same skewed argument is what Doug Kmiec and the other Obamacons have been peddling.

A few thoughts:

1.) I don't know if Monsignor's "facts" are correct, but let us say arguendo that the abortion rates were higher under Reagan and Bush (1) than they were under Clinton, the case that somehow those rates were lower because of increased federal spending in other areas of social welfare HAS NOT BEEN MADE.

2.) What has become of the Church's role in our society to CONFRONT evil? The easy alliance with the purveyors of the culture of death that Professor Kmiec, and my own pastor!, seem glibly willing to make are akin to some mongrelized form of neo-utilitarianism - where the end justifies the means.

I understand the firm doctrine of "ex opere operato," but I really think I'm going to switch parishes over this.

Comments

[daledog]

Loyolalaw98,
The hole in your pastor's logic is big enough to drive a Winnebago through. I hope you confront him before you leave the parish. 'Life is about more than just abortion'? Au contrere mon frere. All the living are here today because they were not aborted. As a member of the living, I cannot bring myself to pull up the drawbridge now that I am safely on the other side of the mote. Good post.

[Sue]

This will not make you feel better about your pastor, but if you want the facts about abortions under Clinton and Bush, please go to this website to see an article written by Dr. Jack Willke at Life Issues Institute:
http://www.lifeissues.org/connector/2008/Oct08_Which_President.htm
In fact, statistics from the Guttmacher Institute show that abortions have continued to decrease since the early 1990's. That is when the Supreme Court ruled in "Planned Parenthood vs. Casey" that it was permissible to put restrictions on abortion. Since then, many states have passed laws restricting abortions, including parental notification and informed consent laws. These laws led to a reduction in the number of abortions during the 90's, and the trend has continued in this decade as the public has become more educated about abortion. Clinton had nothing to do with any of it.
Your pastor might benefit from reading this article, since his premise is based on false information.

What has happened to the Catholic Church? It scarcely resembles the church I knew 40+ years ago. How could things change so much during one lifetime? It is disturbing.

The monsignor was engaging in rationalization. Now that we know something about your pastor's political leanings, I am curious to know about his views concerning liturgy and theology. I can just imagine.

Is he a baby-boomer clinging to his 1960s ideas about change? I think some of these guys are reliving the Kennedy years (John & Robert), as well as the civil rights movement, through their support for Obama.

[Atlanta Catholic]

Loyolalaw98, Wow! Talk about a Divinely arranged appointment! Please purchase a copy of St Catherine of Sienna, Translation by Suzanne Noffke, O.P. "The Dialogue" and ask your pastor to read what Our Lord said to weak pastors....page 257, "But these evil men are unworthy to be called rational, much less ministers. Through their sins they have become filthy beasts. They have no dog of conscience, for one could say it has become so weakened they have none. And therefore they have no rod of holy justice either. And their sins have made them so timid that they are afraid of their own shadows--not with a holy fear but a slavishly. They ought to be readying themselves for death by rescuing souls from the devils hands,but instead they put them there by not instructing them in good and holy living. Nor are they willing to endure a single abusive word for their salvation."

Loyolalaw98, This was not a coincidence. God knew you would be faithful and defend the truth. The book I mentioned could have been written for these exact times. This pastor needs to read Our Lord's words to ST. Catherine. His soul is in great peril. You were meant to hear this to bring about a greater good. I will keep you in my prayers. Once again, God writes straight with crooked lines. Had the friends showed up you might not have been able to hear without distraction, how much this Monsignor needs help. That is an incredible story!

[Simple soul]

Loyolalaw98
Saint Francis is reputed to have said "bloom where you are planted". Don't move parishes- stay at the foot of the cross and begin a daily rosary campaign for this priest. Ask the Holy Spirit to put you in a situation that enables you to speak to this priest if God wants you to -He may have some other person or method to reach this priest which your prayers may enable.Remember Our Blessed Lady is a great protector of priests- ask her to take these two priests under her wing.Remember our priests are on the frontline and the devil is a good marksman.
I know it is painful and disheartening but remember Jesus' promise, stay focused on Him, and live in His Love.
God Bless

[Joan]

My gut instinct would be to switch parishes but after reading the comments I think perhaps you are being called to stay and bring about some change. A quote from Fulton Sheen, "Who is going to save our Church? Not our bishops, not our priests and religious. It is up to you, the people. You have the minds, the eyes, the ears to save the Church. Your mission is to see that your priests act like priests, your bishops like bishops and your religious like religious." Good luck and pray about it! I'm praying for all the bishops in general.

[ATHELSTAN]

Get over it. 54% of US Catholics voted for Barack Obama. He is your next president.

Life will continue and there will still be rain on the plains of Spain without the anti-Obama Catholics, their allies, the SSPX phalangist heretics and their ilk. Not to mention the endless anathematizing emanating from the purple perverts.

[loyolalaw98]

Athelstan,

The point you don't get is

VOX POPULI NON EST LEX SUPREMA.

Being Roman Catholic should mean, used to mean, will hopefully mean again - answering to a code that supercedes the will of the majority.

As JPII commented to American reporters on his plane during his first trip to the USA -
"Christ's Church is NOT a democracy."

[Simple soul]

Athelstan could you translate your second paragraph into simpler terms I don't understand what you are referring to?
As to the disappointment of Catholics that a man who made it clear he would support pro choice rather than pro life their sadness is understandable.We want and need people with wisdom in power It is politically shrewd to support pro choice because of the power of that lobby group but protecting the innocent and vulnerable child in the womb is more important than political survival or political supremacy.We can only pray that during his presidency Barak Obama undergoes a change of heart in this area.

[Jeffrey]

I agree with Joan-you should think about staying and standing up to your priest who is currently misleading the faithful.
If you leave, however, what a great time to switch over to the EF!

[jmm]

Athelstan,

Get over it? Get over it? Did you consider that the 54% may not fully understand the teachings of the Catholic Church? Becuase the "54%" may not know what there faith really stands for does not mean that the 46% that do should role over and give up on the the teachings of our church.

Or this may be a troll post, which is more likely.

I wonder who the real heritic is. Do you really know the meaning of the word? Perhaps not.

Athelstan,

As far as getting over it goes, I think you will be the one who is most disappointed. If it weren't for the fact that Obama will facilitate more abortions, I would find this situation to be laughable.

One of Obama's first important decisions was to appoint, as White House chief of staff, an Orthodox Jew who served as a volunteer in the IDF and who supported Bush's decision to invade Iraq.

He is also appointing recycled Clinton administration bureaucrats. So much for "change." The liberals and leftists have been scammed by Obama. He is already proving to be just another sleazy politician like Clinton. He will probably raise his finger in the air to find out which way the political winds are blowing before making decisions. At this point, that is probably the best situation that can be hoped for by conservative Catholics.

As for all those Easter Sunday Catholics who voted for "what's his name," they are not my fellow Catholics -- neither are you or all those queer clergy. My fellow Catholics are those who adhere to the Truth.

[dymphna]

Leave the parish. These guys don't understand talking. They do understand less money in the plate.

[QuantaCura01]

Loyolalaw: This is what we suffer under Bishop John Steinbock in the diocese of Fresno. With his theologicaly, socially and sexualy errant priests, Steinbock knows all this and does nothing. Our Lady of Guadalupe School in Bakersfield last year attempted to invite pro abortion, pro sodomite activist (street thug) Dolores Huerta. I wonder if your pastor is a seminary classmate of John Steinbock? The St. John's boi's tend to stick real clsoe together. Loyala, I know and feel the pain, under Steinbocks reign the Fresno diocese has suffered for seventeen years. The scandals in the Fresno diocese can make Orange and Los Angeles look like disneyland. "Party before the Holy Faith" is the motto of Bp. John Steinbock and his bois in Fresno.

[Alex]

I'm so tired of the Catholic Church acting like a political party. The church is against abortion ... we get it. Can we get back to talking about Jesus now?

[Lauda Sion Salvatorem]

Regardless of how you handle the issue with your pastor, you *should* try the Extraordinary Form in Fresno. It's at St. Anthony of Padua every Sunday at 3:30. I know it's a bad Mass time, but it's so worth the inconvenience. You will hear a good sermon every single week (you should have been there this past Sunday when our visiting priest absolutely blasted the mentality of those who see Obama as the Messiah). There's an atmosphere of quiet reverence throughout the Mass. I think you'd like it.

[Bernadine]

Never be the guinea pig who thinks that he can change an obstinant priest. It is not worth your or your fiance's soul. We have switched parishes several times to escape the Lavendar Mafia in Fresno. Bishop Steinbock and his ilk, aka the Mahony Crony Camarillo crowd are unflappable in their dissent from Catholic teaching. They understand only one thing - empty collection baskets. You would be doing all of us a favor by naming names. Last night, on the Inga Barks (KMJ 580) radio show, during her interview with the godly Fr. Iolla (sp?) from Modesto,a caller "outed" comments made by Msgr. Swett in Bakersfield. He didn't give all of the particulars, but finding the details will be easy. The more bad press Steinbock gets, the better.

[jmm]

Hey Alex,

It is a moral issue! It has been turned into a political issue, like so many other things, by it's pro-choice proponents. I suggest you read the section on life in the catechism of the catholic church. Ever hear of it?

[Bernadine]

Yes, Alex, let's talk about how Jesus will deal with pro-aborts at their particular judgment.

[Fernando]

The Church today is in a sorry state. I have a parish priest who took away our afternoon Mass because they wasn't enough priests in the parish. We rarely hear anything about abortion, but we do on some occasions. Never anything about birth control, so don't be so surprised by this extremely confused priest.

[James Rich]

I do wonder, if abortion doesn't qualify, what issue would be significant enough to disqualify a candidate and/or party from power. And you can't say "the poor"!! What social issues trump life to millions?

[hold these priests accountable]

I had my own experience this week when I was looking at Holy Trinity Catholic elementary school in Georgetown school website. I have a close relative who just enrolled a kindergarten there. I was shocked to see that the entire school of 330 students took part in an election prior to Nov.4th to vote for either Obama vs. McCain. The shock wasn't over the election itself since my niece had one at her Catholic school and it came out in favor of McCain. Holy Trinity students voted 80% for Obama-Biden. I called the school to inquire exactly what they were teaching in regards to pro-life, well the Admissions Director flat out said McCain sends 18 yrs. to Iraq so that is why they supported Obama. She flat out defended their school and hung up on me. The next day I called the principal she didn't deny being pro-abortion that it is her own personal belief and that the school is very liberal and if I don't like it I can go to Arlington Virginia where it is Conservative. She was very calm and firm that they are liberal and they like it that way and they will continue to be that way.
I then called the Director of Religious Ed. for the Diocese and he was very concerned about what the principal said and that they were currently reviewing all the schools to see how they were doing curriculem wise etc. That it is very complicated and won't change quickly but perhaps in a year or two. That he has to visit that principal on someothers calls he has gotten regarding the school on someother matter. I asked him how does a Principal have so much power to run the school anyway she pleases and he said the Pastor has a bit of control in that area. They have a new Pastor and he believed he might be headed in the right direction but wasn't sure. It was based on one meeting he had with him. But, I am sure it was just a meet and greet type of meeting.
I then called the new Pastor Father Hovak to see for myself if he was leading the school in the right direction. He was as bad as the principal. He said anyone could vote for Obama in good conscious and still be a good Catholic. I asked him about teaching the children that they should be in a good state of grace before receiving Communion and what that means. I asked if he does that at Mass since he said he would not refuse Communion to Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi or Ted Kennedy who I learned attends Mass there regularly. He snapped at me and said "I am not going to say that everyday at Mass!" I asked how about once a month? He defered to his Bishop and I said what about what the Pope says and he was speechless. He had enough of the conversation and said that we were just repeating ourselves so I suggested he might want to consider resigning from the Priesthood if he believes that it ok to be Catholic and pro-abortion.

I always explained that 18yr. olds have a choice whether to go to Iraq or not but an unborn child does not. That we are praying for the Catholic schools. But, I have a very hard time understanding how the Church allows this to continue. It is so blatant. Why doesn't the Pope stamp this out? I always hear it is about the money, power politics but I don't want to accept that. My close relative who daughter just started school at Holy Trinity this year I believe has no idea how bad that school is and just sends her there for the presitige of it and is only temporary since they plan to move back to California in the next year. But my relative who works for the AirForce as a civilian just returned from Iraq after 3 weeks prior to the election and the people over their were afraid of Obama getting elected. I know my relative can be a pit bull so if she finds out how liberal the school truely is then I know she will give them a piece of her mind. But, at this point they are so arrogant they don't care.

[James Rich]

While I can't condone what the principal and priests said, ultimately it is the parents' responsibility to act according to their children's best interests. Perhaps the best interests of their children are not attending this school. Or perhaps that what the school is not addressing in its curriculum can be made up by the parents. The school is responisible, but so are the parents. What does the catechism say about who the primary educators to children are? Parents.

Now, I can't imagine that the topic of abortion comes up that much, which might actually be part of the problem. There are two ways to address disagreement: outright defiance and passive silence; either one can have deadly effects. If your children grow up not knowing something is wrong, it's mainly your fault, mom and dad.

[Joseph D'Hippolito]

What has become of the Church's role in our society to CONFRONT evil?

Simple. Much of the Church (especially its leadership) has been taken in by the same kind of intellectual fashion that has made mainline and liberal Protestantism impotent. The Church is in danger of the same thing happening. Christ had a term for it: Salt losing its flavor.

Besides, bishops and archbishops feel no sense of obligation toward either the faithful or God, since Rome refuses to discipline them unless they challenge Rome's power directly (like Msgr. Lefebvre and, no, I don't belong to nor have sympathy w/SSPX).

While all of you are talking about abortion, I strongly suggest that you also consider the Church's approach toward Islam. Specifically, read the following:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1091218/Muslim-prayer-rooms-opened-Catholic-schools-say-church-leaders.html

http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-36765320081128

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=B3F2FF50-2C44-4EDF-A6EB-356A2CCDFA80

http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Religion/?id=3.0.2782120547

Islam is evil yet Catholic bishops (especially in Europe) are acting as collaborationists, and the Pope fails or refuses to discipline them. Why?

[Alex]

I realize it is a moral issue. But there are hundreds of moral issues to focus on in our world. Why does the Catholic Church continue to define itself by this one moral issue?

And Bernadine . . . while were at it we can also talk about how God will "deal" with every other sinner of this world? That will be fun to cast judgement on everyone less holy that ourselves. Remember the log in your own eye before you find joy in others eternal judgement.