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« Los Angeles Times: LA Archdiocese Seminary Graduated Disproportionate Number of Abuser | Main | Vatican: No Seminarians With "Deep-Rooted Homosexual Tendencies" »

Monday, November 21, 2005

Comments

Kelly

What a disgrace! These men are full of pride, full of themselves. They should do the right thing and join the Episcopal church. These marriages are obviously not licit. Do they even count as a real marriage in God's eyes? They are putting thousands of people's souls in danger. I wonder whether the consecration occurs when that man uses pita bread?!?!?! Shame on them.

jeffersonranch

One of many reasons, Roman Catholic is dead. Our time is one of shame.

TM Lutas

If you want to be a married priest, join the Eastern rite in seminary. Don't violate your vows.

cyendrey

I think this is the greatest weakness that the current church has. One common misconception by Americans (since historical knowledge is always an issue for us) is that celibacy was always a requirement. This, according to the little research I've done, is not so. It appears that Celibacy was optional up to around the 7th century. My personal feeling is that the move to make celibacy a requirement was part of the same misogynistic movement that sought to discredit Mary Magedelene.

I also believe that this is the highest form of arrogance and misogynism - to say that my love of my wife means that I cannot dedicate myself to God. Only someone who views marriage strictly in a sexual context could come to this conclusion.

DMT

Isn't the hardest part of practicing the Catholic faith (and probably any faith) the act of submission to the institution? The subordination of self to become part of the larger body of the Church?

I understand why priests want to continue to practice and demonstrate their faith as religious leaders. I often don't want to do what I'm supposed to do...maybe a rebellious streak...maybe pride...

Whatever the reason, it is putting self over (or at least equal to) the rules of the community and the Church.

Are there alternatives? Sure...several faiths mentioned above allow married clergy...also remaining Catholic and practicing the faith as a Deacon.

As I live my life I'm meeting and seeing many who are very strong, devote Catholics. It's their examples I strive to focus on and emulate. Not the homosexuals, peadophiles, and renegades.

My .02...thanks for the revenue. This is a great site.

T. Shaw

I think Kipling says it here:

"His vows are lightly spoken,
His faith is hard to bind,
His trust is easy broken,
He fears his fellow-kind.
The nearest mob will move him
To break the pledge he gave --
Oh, a Servant when he Reigneth
Is more than e'er slave. "

Kathleen

Celibacy is not just an issue in the Catholic Church, it is the issue. The problem is that the ones who have the power to change this discipline do not recognize their own disfunction.

A celibate priest has too much pressure on him. A priest is expected to be all things to all people. He is lonely and unable to reach out for normal human affection.

I am a conservative, and committed Catholic.

TM Lutas

cyendrey - I happen to come from a portion of the Catholic Church that was suppressed in the 2nd half of the 20th century. The married priests were, as a practical matter, much more likely to fold under state pressure than the celibate priests. It's just a fact that celibate priests have their virtues and one of them is that they are less vulnerable to outside pressure. They have no wives and children that can be used to make them recant their faith.

Kathleen - If you want to be a Catholic in a Church that has married priests, I strongly urge you to find your nearest Eastern Rite parish and enroll there. If celibacy is *the* issue, greater than the sacraments, greater than the Church's link to the miracle of Pentacost, then by all means satisfy that great issue. Catholicism has a place for you and always has had that place. For those who feel differently, why not be tolerant of diversity and allow them their own ideas and disciplines?

It would be the christian thing to do.

Kathleen

Who is going to administer the sacraments? Who is going to maintain the Church's link to the miracle of Pentecost? We have fewer and older priests each year. Latin America, once a bastion of Catholicism, is rapidly succumbing to Protestant evangelization because of the shortage of Catholic priests.

I am not in favor of women's ordination. I see nothing wrong and much right with ordaining married men.

Paul Johnson

Whether the requirement of celibacy is good or bad is not the issue. The issue is whether a priest, who (1) knows the requirement, and who (2) knew the requirement for years before ordination, but (3) who after ordination decides that celibacy's not for him, and (4) who therefore leaves the church, (5) wants back in as a married priest, should be allowed to do so?

To answer the specific question: yes, he is trying to have it both ways, and no, it should not be permitted unless and until the requirement of celibacy is changed.

carolg

I don’t know if celibacy is the issue or if the issue is that some, who after their ordination, have lost sight of being in love with Christ because they lack a solid interior life. There are some orders that are doing very well like the Society of St. John Cantius in Chicago and the Norbertines in California - both have excellent replacement rates with many men in the seminaries. Interestingly, it is the orders that are more orthodox that seem to be doing better than the more ‘liberal’ ones. I don’t have solid numbers for this or for any one order, but I will try to get them. Does anyone else have more info on that? Could it be they are more focused on what they are getting out of the vocation (devoting their lives to Christ) rather than what they are giving up (marriage and family)? Priests aside, look at Mother Theresa’s order the Missionaries of Charity, which is flourishing to this day. It would be a mistake to think Mother Theresa was driven by humanitarian ideals, I believe she was driven by her interior life. She spent a great deal of time in prayer and that was her motivation - to minister to all those people because she saw Christ in all those people. She ministered to the poorest of the poor because that’s how she showed Christ that she loved him. Priests that are hung up on celibacy are missing that point in my opinion. Christ clearly spoke with praise about those who consecrated themselves for the sake of the kingdom so I think it would be a shame to see it as something unhealthy.
There are Eastern (Ukrainian Catholic etc.) rites that have married priests – the only stipulation is that they get married before they become a priest. (Honestly, can you imagine your parish priest dating?!) So, celibacy can’t be the issue. And I know many priests who want to be celibate since they believe that is the best way for them to live out their vocation. I would say where the faith is being lost it is due to a lack of clear preaching and adherence to the truth, and a lack of a holy interior life on the part of the priests and faithful, it’s not because priests can’t get married.

Ruth Anne

I think it is one thing to "leave the priesthood" and be laicized so as to marry [a sad event for almost all involved], and an entirely different [bold, brazen, sinful?] thing to hang up a shingle as a priest-for-hire.

Secondly, trivially, I wonder if CitiBank is concerned about trademark infringement. Perhaps they could sue these dudes out of existence?

Teresa

I also know someone who was married in Seattle by a rent a priest because they didn’t want to wait for their annulment to go through. It’s a shame because now they are in a messy divorce where a small child is involved and uncertain of whether or not they were validly married in the church. People can laugh all they want at what at how Catholic Church shows people to live their lives, but if this couple had followed the rules of the Church instead of thinking they knew better, they wouldn’t be in the situation they are in now. These rent-a-priests think they know better than the Church but they are creating a bunch of messes for people.

Richard

Gentlepersons,

Let us talk about being a good man, then we should discuss how to be a good priest.

Any good man has the same pressures with respect to sexuality, desire to serve the Lord and hope for the future.

I expect as I there are many men who would have become priests if the issue of being married was not an issue.

DMT

From the most recent post here is a snippet that seems to apply "...There are two indissociable aspects in every priestly vocation: the free gift of God and the responsible liberty of the man.

Vocation is a gift of divine grace, received through the Church, in the Church and for the service of the Church.

Responding to the call of God, the man offers himself freely to Him in love. The desire alone to become a priest is not sufficient and there is no right to receive Ordination.

It is the duty of the Church— in Her responsibility to define the necessary requisites for the reception of the Sacraments instituted by Christ— to discern the qualification of he who wishes to enter the seminary, to accompany him during his years of formation and to call him to Holy Orders, if he be judged to be in possession of the requisite qualities."

In my diocese (Richmond VA), Bishop Dilorenzo has taken the position to accept there may not be sufficient priests to carry out all administrative duties in each parish. Some priests are assigned multiple parishes to oversee for spiritual growth and delivery of the sacraments.

In those cases it is expected that the lay community step up to provide for the administrative running of the parish.

Martin

ON WHETHER CELIBACY IS SOME SORT OF CONSPIRACY WITH THE SUPPOSED "ANTI-MARY MAGDALENE" GROUP: While yes, celibacy was not in effect until the 700's, it makes little difference authenticity-wise. The early church fathers and the bible says that it is clear that celibacy is better (not mandatory). The church simply finalized that as a dicipline issue (that can be recinded but probably won't be) in the 700's. As for the oppression of Mary-Mag, you are arguing from silence and therefore need proof. You can disucss that issue at forums.catholic.com I'd (Imprimartin) be happy to answer any questions you have.

ON WHETHER 'TM LUTAS' CAN LOVE HIS WIFE AND "DEDICATE HIMSELF TO GOD" (i.e. be a great priest): If love were simply a feeling, then Mr Lutas would be right. Unfortunately, Love is a choice and an act of sacrifice. And unfortunately, we humans cannot be in two places at the same time to perform those kinds of sacrifices (1Cor7:32-35). As a married priest, your choices are: (1) be a great priest and a marginal husband/father, (2) be a marginal priest and a great husband/father, (3) be a mediocre priest and mediocre husband/father. None of these choices are acceptable in the eyes of God.

The church is NOT misogynistic or arrogant. They've just been around long enough to know better.

Martin

Mike


If there is a "requirement" for celibacy, why do we ordain married Episcopal priests into the Roman Catholic Church? We have one in our diocese and his wife teaches at our parish's Catholic school.

Considering celibacy was not in effect in the Roman Church in the first half of its history and we are making exceptions even today, it hardly seems to be a "requirement."

I believe there should be orders of celibate and married priests.

I am a committed Catholic who attends Mass at least once a week.

Adrian

Jesus wasn't married.

Nor will we be married or given in marriage in heaven.

Jean

Love and compassion should be our primary duty towards those that don't live up to their vows. I rather have an ex priest get married to a person than be a faithful frustrated priest or one who has little escapades yet confesses and feels he is fine. As to whether they administer sacraments I think as church we should not throw away good men that have "failed" yet somewhat feel called to bring Gods love to a broken world. I think as catholics we forget to look at the examples Jesus left us as the first priests, the apostles. God knows they were flawed yet Jesus loved them and called them to preach His love.

SJH

Well, like St. Paul said; It's better to marry than to burn.
Perhaps either an 'optional' celibacy; Every five years the (celibate)Priest is given the opportunity to decide whether to remain celibate for another five years, or marry;
OR; Establish a new Religious Order of Married Priests -"The Holy Family Society" or something.
Personally, I still think celibacy is the better idea.

czechmate

How many celebate priests can dance the limbo on the head of a pin?

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