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Saturday, January 21, 2006



He's right on. The institutional church seems to have been taken over by people with little or no interest in Catholicism. At the same time, there has been an absolute triumph of Catholic thought - and it seems it is going to happen with or without the help of the insitutional church. The re-birth is being driven by those outside the hierarchies of the church - and these people are enormously influential, out of all proportion to their numbers: Robert P. George, 5 of the judges of the Supreme Court; George Weigel, the huge pile of love shown to John Paul II (an outsider as far as the American Catholic Church is concerned), Mother Angelica and EWTN, the success of First Things, - all of this testifies to the strength of Catholic ideas, if not institutions.

As a person who came of age in the 70's, it is a source of wonderment to me that the natty old Catholic church seems to have been proven right on all of the big issues: abortion IS wrong, contraception harms family life, Divorce IS bad for people, the universe was created at one point in time (big bang versus the steady state universe I was taught), communism and socialism ARE pernicious, marriage and family ARE important, and the role of men and women are more fixed than we would like to pretend.

On the other hand we have the institutional Church that seemed intent on transforming church life into an leftwing political activity rather than a religious one.

Perhaps the decline of Catholic institutions was inevitable. A relatively small minority took over the infrastructure of the institutions but did not convert the people to their way of thinking. The couldn't because ultimately, their way was not based on truth. And so they become irrelevant..


On can not discuss honestly the demise of the catholic church and the disrespect brought upon her without honestly discussing Vatican II and the changes that were made afterward, all in with the keeping of the "spirit".

When one holds a council, and as John XXIII said in his opening address, he was "going to throw open the windows of the church for all to see in", etc, what he is saying is that we were wrong for the first 1960 years or so, and we are going to change to be more like the modern secular anti Christ like world, where man is worshipped and God becomes secondary, instead of reaffirming our stance that God and Our Lord should be the center of our Life, and people should try to be more like the church, instead of the church becoming more like society. Reading through the 16 council documents one can get amazed at how often the words "liberty" and "freedom" of man is used.

When a mass is changed in which the Holy sacrifice was the centerpiece, and a Mass is the Holy sacrifice, and Man is now the center of worship, as is with the New Mass, not to mention the changing of all of the sacraments, Canon Law, and the Catechism, the way priest are addressed (no More Father Smith, it is now "Hey Father Jim, how is it goin?"), and the way a Priest and Nuns dress today, how can one respect that? They wear pyschadelic hippie clothing and nuns can not even be distinguished from the laity!

Respect is earned, an the way of the church, the free for all condoned by these products of the 1950's, Vatican II and thereafter need to go away, and sanity, reverence, and the Holy Sacrifice of the mass, as codified by the Saints and Martyrs needs to be restored, and then one can ask for respect

The Catholic Knight

Yeah, I think he's on to something. The problem is with the USCCB and the American institution of Catholicism.

You see the USCCB, and institutionalized Catholicism, come across as very liberal in the United States. By "liberal," I mean progressive, innovative, unorthodox, corrupt and a little bit rebellious. That doesn't correlate to Catholic beliefs in general. Speaking as a convert to Catholicism, what attracted me to the Church was the conservative authority of the Vatican, and the belief system promoted from there. I really had very little interest in the USCCB, and as I started to learn the inner workings of the organization, it reminded me more of the Protestant denominations I so earnestly wanted to leave behind.

My uncle, a cradle Catholic and traditionalist, shares my sentiments. The Vatican he listens to, but as for the USCCB, it's something he could just as easily do without.

I think the sex-abuse scandal of 2002 was the straw that broke the camel's back. I think a lot of U.S. Catholics could care less for the national organization of bishops based entirely on the way things were handled. Liberalism has failed U.S. Catholicism miserably, and where it not for the pope, it would have destroyed it completely. All across America young Catholics are returning to their roots. They're looking for concrete substance in are world that only offers them relativism. What the USCCB has to offer young Catholics is archaic and obsolete. Most Catholics I know, under the age of 30, could care less about the 1960s and the revolutions that decade inspired. Slowly but surely, the beatnik hippy culture is becoming the stuff of grannies and geezers. The 60s are over, (they have been for nearly 40 years), and America's youth are ready to move on. In many ways, the practicing Catholics of generation x, y and z have more in common with their grandparents than their parents. The solid moral compass of the 1940s and 50s seems far more appealing than the peace, love, 'rock and roll' philosophy of the 1960s and 70s. For young Catholics, this means embracing the traditional Catholic faith of their grandparents, and listening to the instruction of solid leadership, such as we see in the Vatican today. It helps to explain why Catholic beliefs, values and morals are doing well among Catholics, but support of organized Catholicism (particularly in the USA) is falling apart.

What is needed is a massive restructuring of the USCCB, to act more as an arm for the Vatican, rather than a platform to advocate the will of some U.S. bishops.


You've all gotten it backwards. It isn't that American culture is beginning to embrace the truths of Catholicism. It is that fallen catholics are beginning to embrace the deceits of Americanism.

And it started when Catholics began to disregard the teachings of their Bishops and Popes.

"He who listens to you listens to me, and he who rejects you rejects me..."
Luke 10:16

But fallen Catholics grant more authority to their political ideologies than they do to the successors of the Apostles. And they all rationalize it. Conservatives start aggressive wars, liberals kill babies, and each and every one manages to say the same thing - "we don't have to listen, so we won't." It's shameful. If only they'd read the Gospel: "He who listens to you listens to me, and he who rejects you rejects me..."

The only part of Catholicism that America has embraced is the part that has rotted and fallen off - the part that no longer listens to its Bishops.

God Bless,


Unfortunatly it has not been so much as Americans who are not listening to the Bishops as it is the Bishops who refuse to lead the flock, possibly because they as well as the church leadership, thought they themselves needed a "renewal"

Today, more than ever, it is necessary for the Traditional Catholic to denounce all which has been brough forth against the Bride of Christ in Its attempt to subvert, pervert, and seduce the faithful. This Beast of our age is the notion that it is the essential work of the Church to renew Herself by means of purifying Tradition of accretions.

Where in all the history of the Church has any Father, Doctor or Saint claimed that it is the duty of the Church to purify Her past? Rather, they all declare it is the duty of the Church to purify the present age

Likewise it is the duty of the Catholic, not to reform the Church by renewal, but to reform himself by submitting to the perennial norm of faith: Sacred Tradition.

This madness that has gripped the Church from the reign of Pope John XXIII must be seen for what it is, entirely foreign to the authentic nature of the True and Historic Church: a pernicious, festering, infection, which like AIDS, reduces its host to a defenseless, beplagued cadaver, by destroying all its defenses. The defenses of the Church are the traditions, customs, discipline, theology, doctrine, piety, art, spirituality which She has receive from Christ through the Apostles, decorated and applied by our forefathers. These are the vessels and handiwork of Sacred Tradition, and to attack them in the name of a modernistic/Protestant iconoclasm, is to destroy the remembrance and propagation of the only True Faith, outside of which and apart from which there is no salvation

The only authentic norm of renewal then, is not Aggiornomentoism, but rather penance and faith. And this should have been clear enough to the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council, admonished as we all are by the Apostle Paul: Do not conform yourselves to this present age, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind.
As Our Lady declared at Akita: There will come a day when the Church will be filled with those who accept compromise. At this She wept. And it has come to pass: in the Sacred Hierarchy, in the Institutes of Religious and Priestly life, in the parishes, in lay organizations, etc. On account of the nature of Catholicism, as seen above, all those who compromise have already lost essential character of what it means to be Catholic and live as a Catholic.


The bishops aren't leading their flocks, you're right. But neither are catholics listening when the Bishops try.

It is their duty to teach. It is our duty to listen. Neither of us has the right to abstain from that duty.

I think.


I think the article sums up in general what I am noticing today in the U.S. The bishops would like the church to become more like the anglican or lutheran mainline churches, while the lay catholic in the pews are more akin to the evangelicals they find preaching on tv and in the corner churches.

What I think is happening in America and the world today, is that the promise to Peter by Christ in Matthew 16 is being born out. "that the fires of hell shall not prevail against you".

When Terri Schaivo was fighting for her life, The catholic church was the loudest and most consistant voice in her defense. Granted the voices were not from the USCCB, but from the lay persons, parish priests and if I remember correctly, even the pope issued a statement on this as well. The church consistantly takes the lead in opposing abortion and euthanasia as well. Look at the video on any tv on the march for life in D.C. from Monday. Most of the religious were catholic and I'd venture that most of the teens present were also catholic school students.

I' venture that a pruning of the church is taking place and that the church will be stronger for it.


Didn't Jesus say, I want your mercy not your sacrifice. Judge and you will be judge, Forgive and you will be forgiven. Love your enemy. The decline of the Catholic church is not due to liberalism or the changes of Vatican 2. Check out the major Gallop Poll survey commissioned by the Catholic church two years ago. The decline is due to a lack of vision, focus on profits, spending on buildings, lack of understanding of Jesus teachings, lack of holy spirit and love, and focus on tradition. The fastest growing Christian church on earth is the four-square church and they celebrate communion also, but its done as a rememberance of Christ, as he as us to do.


By the way, Nate. The name of the first christian church was "The Way". The only sacrament or traditional practice was to relieve the suffering of others. The church grew to destroy the Roman Empire, until Constantine found a way to unite Roman tradition and the Christian church. Jesus, explain that to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, "You had to confess that he was Lord and Savior". To confess means to live your life as witness of Jesus, Love God and Love your Enemy.


Try and keep the Four Square going for 2000 years, produce countless saints, and build civilizations, and then get back with us, OK?


Mmmmmmmmm, seems I touched a nerve. I must be right on track. I didn't know the mission Jesus wanted us to accomplish was to create Saints and build civilizations. My mistake.


If our purpose is not to become saints through the grace of Christ, and bring others to the same grace, then pray tell, what is it?


I recently made the painful decision to sever my ties with the Catholic Church. I feel the hierarchy is morally bankrupt and like their political counterparts, are more interested in image than substance.
Vatican II broke the ties of tradition that held the flock together. I was watching an old movie on TV and it showed the "Old Mass" said in Latin, the woman with their heads covered, the men hats removed, people dressed up, etc. That whole scene has been erased and with it the glue that held the congregation together.
It was soon replaced by guitar Masses, etc.
The reverence was destroyed and the Church is paying the price for it.
I now get more out of quiet reflection with God than I have at Mass lately.
I will never be back - nothing worthwhile to go back to.
That is this man's view

c9 online gold

If our purpose is not to become saints through the grace of Christ, and bring others to the same grace, then pray tell, what is it?

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