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Thursday, May 25, 2006

Comments

Angela Velazquez

The "new" translations don't seem new to me and they are a more accurate translation of the Tridentine Mass that was recited in Latin before Vatican II changes were implemented. Check out a St. Joseph Mass Missal predating 1962 (you can purchase one on the internet) and notice the English translation in the missal matches what is being proposed in June. Interesting.

Vemos

Please excuse me but the Church in America (USA and Canada)is far from accurate in translating things. Not only do they put things wrong, they do it on purpose. I have seen words like "virgins" be scratched off the scriptures and words like "youths"be replaced. Words like damnation, hell,etc. are constanty being illegitamaly and apparently SINFULLY scratched off the Gospel and Holy Scriptures. The preists are timid in speaking of Purity and damnation in Hell. They try to explain God in the Old Testament in a way that makes Divine History look like a candy store. God is always the same. He was, is and shall be.
TU QUI EST ET QUI ERAS ET QUI VENTURUS EST
If God burned Sodom and left in place the Dead Sea, than He will intervine soon, because we are so much many times perverse than they are. America and the whole world need to stop portraing God like a punching bag who won't do anything. Deus Caritas Est
Yes, God is love, but to love, Mercy is neccesary, but so is Justice.
Domine Deus Exercitum
Deus Ultor Domine
God forgives the ones who seek repentance, but will condemn those who don't.
The translations are increasingly becoming watered down. Along with the sermons, which say love and live in peace with everyone EVERY SINGLE SUNDAY, no one ever hears what this world has to hear. GOD EXISTS AND HE SET A LAW THAT WE ARE BREAKING, SO GET READY.
No, its not the end of the world, just the prophecies of Fatima, Blessed Palau and St.Pio, and so many others.
This worlds needs to hear the Scriptures as God inspired them, not like Burger King and having it "your way".
God Bless and keep me in your prayers as I will too for you.

Vemos

OH NO I TAKE IT BACK

It would seem that the translations are more accurate.
They are proposing putting the exact translations of Latin.
VERY GOOD
MEA CULPA, MEA CULPA, MEA MAXIMA CULPA
not mea culpa mea and that is it
(through my fault)

The Sanctus will start, "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God of hosts." The current version says, "Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of power and might."

I hope they will put in the other stuff,
LORD GOD OF HOSTS is a start
(Domine Deus Exercitum)

Hosts = armies (for the ones who did not know what it means)

MEA CULPA

Going, going,go-

If people are going to argue about what words are "right" in the Mass - that surely shows the smallness of their minds.

Luke Perez

It's not a matter of the "right" vs. the "wrong" words so much a matter of an "accurate" vs an "inaccurate" translation. It makes a big difference in the end.

Quick example:
We all have heard and know "The Mass has ended..." In the Latin it reads "Ita Missa Est." The word 'ended' does not appear in the Latin text.

Ah! But some reply: "Well, technically the Mass has ended and what's wrong with a modern language use of wording?"

To which I reply: You lose a sense of Catholic Theology in the process. The literal translation is "Go, the Mas is" but also, "Thus is the Mass". You see the Latin "ita" is the command "Go" and the word for "thus".

When looking at what the authors of the Mass were trying to convey the only logical conclusion is that the Mass is like God, never ending.

This gulf in word and sentence meaning applies to all aspects of the Roman Rite and we should welcome such attempts to make more accurate translations. Which isn't to say its an easy task, in many parts of the Latin text getting a direct literal translation is impossible because Latin grammar does not work the way English grammar does.

Taking the time to seek after accuracy gives all Catholics, not just the ones with knowledge of Latin or are well read in Catholic Theology, a better sense of its teaching and mission in the world and of Salvation.

Neither should we look at it as a Traditional vs Progessive divide nor see anything else but our journey to Salvation.


In Christ,

Luke

James

I, as a convert, have even heard of these these "new" translations before. I would be interested to hear, if anyone cares to, what the significance to "..and also with your spirit" is. It comes off odd (not that that is a reason to exclude the changes). Also, "I believe" instead of "we believe"...I like asserting what the Church believes, like the Lord's Prayer, not what individuals believe. Doesn't that make the focus to self/individual focused?

Thanks for any feedback.

James

Nate Wildermuth

Sometimes, its worth repeating Jesus own words:

"I have come not to condemn the world, but to save the world."

Read the Gospels and the Church's teachings, and you'll see that love is simply justice in action. Forgiving your enemies is a far greater act of justice that destroying them. The army of God isn't full of soldiers and tanks - it is full of martyrs.

May your heart find peace...

Dubliner

There is a touch of Nero fiddling while Rome burns about this issue. It seems entirely irrelevent which words we use when so many are abandoning the church.
Typical of those out of touch Roman bureaucrats and functionaries!
The Functionaries of Christ!

Richard

My brothers and sisters,

This debate should be of great concern to each and every Catholic.

If we believe that the Sacrifice of the Mass is the "source and summit of Christian life" (CCC 1324), then the words and movements used in the Eucharist is of paramount importance.

But do not be decieved that this merely a political struggle (conservative Vatican versus liberal Bishops).

No, this is and has always been a battle of ideas. It is a battle about the core teachings of the Catholic Church.

The words used in the Eucharist affect the very essence of Catholic belief and has a profound effect on our Faith. Understand - Words matter.

It is not just a disagreement over translations but it is a battle between authentic and inauthentic belief.


youngfogey

whattyamean VOTE?! Do we really think that sacrilegious clowns like Mahony, Brown and Skylstad can be trusted to propagate a more reverent liturgy? I think this is the perfect time for Benedict to start putting his foot down.

Taz

I hope the Mass don't become more vengeful. That's the last thing we need. And why we need an even more guilt-ridden Penitential Rite, I don't know. We should remember Christ's mercy to us and stop torturing ourselves. "And with your spirit" sounds like a beautiful translation though. PS-is this only happening in the US or is it in Britain as well???

David

In Spanish Masses, when the priest says, "The Lord be with you," the people respond, "Y con tu espiritu," which translates as, "And with your spirit."

It would be interesting to know what the original Latin writers had in mind with this phrase. We have a body and we have a soul. I wonder what the spirit refers to?

JMC

About "ite missa est..." The word "Mass" for our Sunday Sacrifice comes from this phrase. Literally, it means, "Go, it has been sent." (or, if you're translating "ite" as "thus," it's "Thus it has been sent." One presumes this is referring to to Sacrifice having been offered.
/
As far as all the other translation changes, this is the beginning of the "reform of the reform" that Pope Benedict has referred to several times. "And with your spirit" is the original translation of the Latin, as is "Lord God of hosts."
/
Are we quibbling about words? Yes. In a court of law, a single misplaced punctuation mark or misspelled word can change the meaning of an entire document. So it is with the prayers we say. The current translations of many prayers have taken away a sense of the sacred. And as for the remark about a "guilt-ridden" penitential rite... That's modern psychology speaking, according to which "guilt" should be avoided at all costs. This is in direct opposition to Catholic teaching, which is that guilt is what sin does to us, and that guilt must be removed by means of confession before we are worthy to receive Holy Communion. Guilt is not the evil the psychologists would have us believe---unless, of course, it is excessive, which is another topic altogether, and one about which I am not qualified to speak. Normal guilt is a great good. It is healthy. Guilt keeps most normal people from doing terrible things. It keeps civilization from falling apart. Look at what 40 years of "I'm okay, you're okay" has done to us.
/
"Man is a creature composed of body and soul." (Baltimore Catechism) Sin doesn't do anything to the sinner's body, but it wreaks havoc on his soul. That's why the "Lord I am not worthy" used to say "speak but the word, and MY SOUL shall be healed." "I shall be healed," to me, brings to mind the ancient Hebrew belief that maladies of the body were the direct result of one's own sin. Today, this engenders a belief that obeying God's law will keep you in perfect health, and, when it doesn't work, people lose faith. We also tend to forget that we have souls that will live on after our bodies die, and saying "And also with you" doesn't help. Restoring phrases like "with your spirit" reminds us that we do have both a body and a soul, and that "We must take more care of the soul than of the body, because, in losing the soul, we lose God and eternal happiness." (Baltimore Catechism)

So, yes. Let's quibble about words.

GFK

Changes to those portions of the roman rite mass will make it sound a bit more like the english translation of the byzantine rite liturgy.


That's not a bad thing and a few more changes in that direction wouldn't hurt either. The liturgy of St. John chrysostom is aincient and byzantine masses, on average, are much more beautiful and participatory than the post-vatican II roman rite vernacular masses.

frances

Somewhere in my fragmented memory is the thought that "Ita, missa est" is the phrase Jesus uttered just before he died, signalling the completion of this mission of loving redemption for us. Not having a Latin Bible, I cannot confirm this. Can anyone out there?

Barbara Marcum

Can someone please cite the entire pray for me. I seem to have forgotten it after all these years. "Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord; God of Power and Might. What comes next??? Is it "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, Hosana in the Highest."
Help! Just a little family contest?
Thanks,
Barbara

joanne

Holy, Holy, Holy Lord, God of power and might,
heaven and earth are full of your glory.
Hosanna in the highest.
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the highest.

I love that prayer.

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