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« Los Angeles: Lesbian-gay ministry celebrates 20th anniversary in archdiocese | Main | Homosexuality, Free Speech, & Gay Marriage: The Troubles Ahead »

Friday, May 12, 2006


Denver Catholic

"shoring up a base of support within the gay community."

What? Isn't the Bishop supposed to shepherd his flock, not play politics and factions, and ignore/condone/support sinful acts?

As far as the gay community goes, the Bishop (and any Catholic) should act with charity.

Meaning we and he should be helping the "gay community" be chaste within their station in life, avoid the disordered acts that homosexuality requires, abandon the hedomistic and promiscuous "gay lifestyle". And above all we and he should save thier souls: help them repent, seek God's forgiveness and love, and sin no more.

"Grace Abounds More"

Dear Denver Catholic! Truer Catholic words, have never been spoken. Would it be possibe for you to bilocate to this Diocese and help loving Catholics, do just that. With God all things are possible, but we could sure use some dedicated hands to convince the lead Shepherd that there is even a problem to begin with. It is actually spoken of, as being a great gift. Beautiful programs to encourage what you are suggesting are forbidden. Yes, we can do it one at a time, when we are given that opportunity. The greatest tragedy is that our Lead Shepherd has let all the priests know where he stands. They are now hamstrung to preach with the loving voracity that is necessary. Our lead Shepherd for this Diocese is giving permission for an ex-priest living with his partner, permission to wreckovate Catholic Churches. We are praying for this Shepherd and ex-priest. We love them! The problem is that the only reason he is an ex-priest, was due to the pressure placed on Bishop Brown. This ex-priest told relatives that he knew he was causing them heartbreak by his lifestyle. These relatives had charitably asked him to leave the priesthood because they loved him and it was wrong. This priest told them that Cardinal Mahony and Bishop Brown are aware of my lifestyle, and are fine with it. The relatives had a meeting with Bishop Brown and asked him to write a letter to family members that this was not the teaching of the Church, let alone be a Catholic priest doing this. Bishop Brown refused a simple letter to not only ease the pain of these relatives, but to educate other family members, that this was not accepted by the Catholic Church. Then the Bishop tried a bogus secret oath to quiet the truth that this was going on. When the Bishop refused to write that letter, he just said, "I can't do that"! The relatives said, "You are the can do anything you want are responsible for all of the souls in this Diocese. Bishop Brown then stated with an honest looking expression, "I am **NOT** resonsible for their souls! I love your earlier words, and they still ring true no matter what. I just wanted you to know that the uphill climb is a little more than steep! By the way, good priests informed these relatives that no secret oath to hide evil is valid. We would love your help!

Godfrey Mannion

The ranting of the pevious post is both disjointed and extremely reactionary. Can we at least try to maintain rome rational sequence to our thoughts here please, and hot dissovle into semi-hysterical diatribe!

The issue here isa whether the children of "Gay Marriages" should be admitted to Catholic Education.

To discriminate againt the children in this case would seem an injustice; they are after all innocent parties caught up in the politics of the issue. By attending Catholic School the will at least be exposed to an environment where true values are the norm and have some hope of ingesting proper values, which seems very unlikely in their strange "family" setup.

It can never be right to use the children as weapons by anyone engaged in this debate; and if we allow ourselves to be drawn to so so we treat the chidren as pawns in the game and let ourselves down badly. Bishop Brown has made a courageous decision and is to be applauded for such. As to the unnamed ex-priest o the previous post - he sounds a most confused fellow and it seems that his bishop may well have understood his fragility and wanted to do nothing to shatter the man.


How cruel would it be for children of homosexual caretakers to learn that the people who take care of them are in mortal sin and that if they die that way, will go to hell? That is Catholic Doctrine. Of course, these children will never hear that in this diocese because they don't teach Catholic Doctrine in the schools anymore. The Catholic schools are supposed to be the extension of the parents in educating their children in the Faith first and foremost. Adherence to Church Teaching would automatically preclude these poor children from enrollment. However, at St. John the Baptist School in Costa Mesa, CA their mission statement is, "if you're not living a lifestyle that's compatible with Church teaching and which threatens your eternal salvation, (homosexual, shacking up, contraception), we know you can't help it. The most important thing is that your feelings are never hurt, so we'll never mention true Church Teaching regarding those evils, and if anyone does, they're outa here! So, your children will be just fine at our school. We don't care if you're in mortal sin,(we don't really believe in hell anyway) and the kids will never know." Bishop Tod Brown, Sr. Vianney and some priests at St. John the Baptist School have said as much, which of course caused the Rainbow Sashers to cheer. So Godfrey, your rationale for not telling the Truth is that it will shatter fragile people? Which Canon is that? True charity desires eternal good for a soul, and does everything possible to prevent the real shattering of eternal damnation. Your sympathy for Bishop Brown is very telling.

Denver Catholic

Godfrey, the issue is not what you stated it to be.

The fundamental issue is would allowing such actions be in contravention to the teachings of the magiserum of the Church.

The harm to the children is occuring not due to their exclusion by the Church, but to the acts of the homosexuals who are rearing these children. So place the blame, if you must place blame (which is what you *are* trying to do) for the damage to the children where it originates: with the unrepentant sinners, not the people trying to save them.

If the homosexuals truly wish a Catholic education for the child, then they must abide by the rules, and realize that the child will be taught that homosexual acts are disordered, and an abomination. And those who advocate and practice them are damned, and in dire need of salvation - as we all are. And that they will need to repent, ask forgiviness and sin no more.

The problem exists because they refuse to repent - to recognize the evil in their acts - and seek to force others to accept their disordered acts and life as normal, in contravention to Church teachings.

The Church and the school can no more accept this sort of thing thant they could accept *unrepentant* abortionists, murderers, apostates or Satanists.

So yes, allow the children in, but with severe restrictions on the people who have adopted them, including disbarrment from school functions if they chose to show their sin and sinful relationship - i.e conform to norms expected by the Church - showing their homosexuality openly or overtly is no more allowable than it would be for them to play Frisbee with the Hosts. Both are an affront to the Holiness of the church and flout the sanctity of the Church.

And this should apply for couples that are "shacked up" and not planning to bring themselves into alignment with the Church's teachings. Chaste within your station is exactly what it means, ans it applies to all: celibate, married or single.

Need I remind you that Christ did not come down and go to the cross to be our pal and make us feel good - He did it for our salvation. And He never promised that salvation would be easy, only that it would be worth it.

He is not here to play nice and do the Rodney King thing "Can we all just get along". No we cannot.

Matthew 10:34: "Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

He was definitely not about doing things the easy way:

Matt 7:13-14 Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

He warns us that we will pay a price for staying true, and that we are not called to be popular, but to be True to Him instead.

Matt 10:22 you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

And we are all sinners - let us not cast the first stone. But also let us out of Christian Charity not allow the blind to be led astray - let them know the wrongness of their acts (gently), let them know the infinite forgiveness of God, and help them learn to repent and sin no more.

Show them the way to the narrow gate and help them enter.


God-free..... hmmmmmm? I think that about sums it up!

Godfrey Mannion

Whwen I read posts like the above I despair! The message of Christ has been twisted into a weapon to beat up those who fall short of the mark.....what a travesty.
Take some lead from Benedict XVI who chose to write his first encyclical not laying down moral law but on the supremacy of the love of God ! You people sound more like bible thumpers from the deep south than true members of the church.
We can all pull scripture quotes and use them like cudgels to beat up on those we dislike - I don't think Jesus would approve; in fact I feel certain he would not. What is being proposed here is a new Pharaseeism - a people apart - who think of themselves as some kind or religious elite, and wouldn't be seen dead with the lowlifes of this world. Could I remind you that it was the lowlifes that Jesus sought out as his dnner companions!
Right wing Catholocism is an ugly caricature of the faith; a faith which above all reaches out to the marginalised and downtrodden, we are not Pharisees. In each one of us there is a mixture of light and darkness, good and evil. "Let whovere among you who is withot sin, cast the first stone" (Couldn't resist an arrow!)
Oh and for the ignoramus who mocked my name, it is of mediaeval origin and actually means "God's peace"


Denver Catholic, I wish that someone would show you the way to the nearest high rise window and help you exit! You really are so superior in your attitude. YUCK!

"Godfrey's Guardian Angel"

A blog patroler notified me that Godfrey Mannion, the purveyor of uncharitable remarks all over the blogdom, is now seeing the light. Our Novena prayers have been answered. Thank you Saint Jude! It only took nine days for Godfrey to promote love for one another. Perhaps, a little of the ol', (can certainly dish it out, but most certainly can't take it)promoted such language of love. Only continued prayer can conquer such sad and disguised bitterness. Call on me Godfrey, I'm with you at all times for guidance. Remember what I taught you as a lad. Angel of God, my guardian dear, to whom God's love, commits me here. Ever this day, be at Godfrey's side, to Light, to Gaurd, to Rule, to Guide, and ever most challenging Lord, to remove abundant pride. Amen

Dear Denver Catholic, I know you will pay no attention to Karl. In your kind Catholic wisdom, you reconize the darkness hates the light. St. Augustine said, "The devil is like a dog on a chain, always barking and distracting. He can only bite, if you wander into his radius". So please continue to spread the gospel of Truth and Love. UN-YUCKED by Faith!

Godfrey Mannion

Just when I thgought it couldn't get crazier here - some nut thinks he's my Guardian Angel!


Of course Our Lord ate and drank and mingled with sinners. That's why He came. To save us from sin! To call us all into freedom from the slavery of sin, and then to die a horrific death on the cross so that we could actually share eternal life with Him forever, if we choose. And that means to give up sinning. That is our part, and if we don't give up whatever mortal sin it is that we are slave to, then hell awaits us. He always said "go, and sin no more." He never let sinners believe that they were ok in their sin, no matter how downtrodden they were. And to follow Him is to do the same. If you are in mortal sin, you are in big trouble, in fact you are spiritually dead. And the same is true for me. Jesus loves you and me, but He will not abide unrepented mortal sin. This is the teaching of the Catholic Church, not the teaching of the bloggers on this site or any other. Those who do not accept the teachings of the Catholic Church are free to find a Church that agrees with their own Theology, because the Catholic Church will never change. Godfrey, do you disagree with this?

Godfrey Mannion

And how precisely do you call people to anything if you refuse to have anything to do with them? Of course the Lord came to call sinners to repentence, but he did so not through condemnation but through gentle invitation. If all we do is scream "sinners" at others we serve no good purpose. I read recently that a spoonful of honey attracts more flies than a barrelfull of vinegar!

Inviting Catholic

Godfrey is your complaint about the treatment of homosexuals? What do you mean by refuse to have anything to do with them.
Please be specific, and if you can't then maybe you need to know that everyone on this blog loves the person.. (honey and all), but hates the sin(yes,sin exists)warts and all. No one should be mean and unkind to anyone. You sound defensive. Is it you, or a loved one that feels rejected? I gently invite you to feel loved by all your Catholic friends on this blog. I think your a very sad example of what meaness can do, but don't be guilty of judging everyone.
The funny thing about it is, you are what you don't like. Judgmental and bitter, but we still love you and want you to be happy.
What makes a person happy Godfrey? How about being in the state of grace?

Denver Catholic

Jump out a window?

How nice of you Karl. Such a good Christian atttitude. Thanks for baring your fangs for all to see.

"The message of Christ has been twisted into a weapon to beat up those who fall short of the mark.....what a travesty."

No - I'm not beating anyone up. Unless you consider warning someone that they are headed into a wall with their foot on the gas "beating them up". The subject here is not me, but nice try turning it that way instead of dealing with what I wrote. The subject is you and others who allow sins to continue without calling it to the attention of the sinner. The only thing worse than an informed sinner who is unrepentant is one who refuses to inform the sinner that he can and should repent - and allows the sinner to fall away from God.

Need I remind you in addition to the scriptures above, there are the Seven Spiritual Works of Mercy? Of which instructing the ignorant and admonishing the sinner are included.

Remember St Paul's letter to the Romans, 5:14 And concerning you, my brethren, I myself also am convinced that you yourselves are full of goodness [meaning your hearts are in the right place], filled with all knowledge [meaning you have been taught] and able also to admonish one another.

Going back to the biblical Greek - the word we render into English as Admonish is this: "Noutheteo". It conveys the ideas of encouraging, advising and finally warning people of the consequences of their behavior. Admonishing speaks of encouraging counsel in view of sin and coming punishment. In short noutheteo is giving counsel with a warning involved. Noutheteo describes an effect on the will and the disposition and it predisposes an opposition which has to be overcome. It seeks to correct the mind, to put right what is wrong, to improve the spiritual attitude.

And as someone once put it, it is often a thankless and difficult task, as those being admonished to not want to hear it.

To not do so, to not educate, counsle and wanr sinners (each other) is a gross derelection of Christian duty. This line of ethics goes back to the Old Testament.

For example, this same word (noutheteo) is used the the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew OT in describing the failure of the priest Eli to rebuke his sons, who "were worthless men (Hebrew = 'belial' means worthless, but is a name for the devil. In as sense they were sons of the devil); they did not know Yaweh" (1Samuel 2:12). Eli questioned them (1Samuel 2:23-24) but failed to actually *admonish* his sons. God said "I have told him (Eli) that I am about to judge his house forever for the iniquity which he knew (Eli was not ignorant of their sinful behavior), because his sons brought a curse on themselves and he did not rebuke (noutheteo) them." (1Samuel 3:13)

It is incumbent upon us to spread the Good News - but this also carries with it the duty to educate, counsel and admonish sinners, not to "get along" for the sake of a falsely seated opeace.

I am no better than anyone else - we are ALL sinners as I said before, me far greater than any of you I imagine - as a soldier, I have broken almost all of the 10 Commandments before my conversion a some time ago. I was objecting the way you do becuse the criticism made me uncomfortable - so I lashed out and attacked the messenger just as you are doing instead of considering the message.

You can attack me, thats fine. I have a thick enough skin. But attacking me will not change the truth.

The bottom line, from Catechism and Scripture and Church Tradition is:

If we will not repent, then we will be punished by God. It says so right in the Bible, in Jesus' own words, as well as those of the Apostles. I'm sorry its not easier the way you want it to be, I wish it were - I have so many things to swallom my pride about, admit that I did, and ask forgivness for, its not funny.

Perhaps if all of us listened to the readings at Mass, or read the Bible on our own, and worried about catechising ourselves, we know these things.

Especially those who seem content to call names but not provide any biblical nor catechetical basis for your stance on coddling instead of correcting homosexuals. You'd rather let them stay in the dark than deal with showing them the light.

Wake up.

Denver Catholic

Godfrey, by the way, I take communion to AIDS patients as part of my duties as an EMHC in my parish. So I don;t ignore them any more than the homeless - care to volunteer for Habitat for Humanity? Great program and a great way to spend a weekend day if you can.

While I'm mentioning AIDS patients and homosexuals, let me mention that people need to realize not all AIDS patients are homosexuals, and a few homosexuals with AIDS have come back to full Practice with the Church, after repenting confessing and being chaste within their station - its so very difficult for them, they need your prayers so much!

I meet their friends, many of whom are still doing wrong things. And we do discuss this if they wish to bring it up. Some hate me, some think I'm just a bit odd because I don't hate them back. But thats what we are supposed to do. And who knows - if Im gentle but firm in my beleif, maybe they will see that they can come back to the Church.

Certainly better than that Fred "God hates Fags" Phelps group, they test my patience every time I hear about them - God give me strength to restrain myself from going down there with a baseball bat and beating them even more senseless than they already are. There's still a lot of warrior left in me and people like that just bring it to the surface.

Inviting Catholic

Extra! Extra! Read all about it! Godfrey Mannion has been invited to the Truth! This wonderful occasion took place on May 13, 2006, at 11:54 PM. Denver Catholic goes out of his way to bring much needed healing to a man who is riddled with excuses to rationalize. Inquiring Catholics are hopeful that Godfrey breaks the negative cycle that keeps him in a repetitious spin of words. Famous philosophers state that it isn't the disagreement of Teachings or Doctrines that fuel this defense. It is usually some delicious sin that they cannot leave. The arrogant dialogue is a smokescreen. Plain and simple. If you meet a Godfrey Mannion on the street, gently invite him to dinner, give him a Catechism for dessert....then point him in the direction of a confessional. Greater love hath no man, than to tackle a Godfrey Mannion!

Godfrey Mannion

My Dear Inviting Catholic,
You have given a rare insight into the psyche of the "right wing" Catholic.
All those who disagree are morally deficient - even in serious sin, and only those whose views match yours are among the "elect" What strange rationale?

It is not the duty of any christian to become morality enforcers - it is enough to state your case simply and directly and then give the more important witness of your actions. The holier than thouism that I see here in so many posts serves no purpose whatever - except that of making the proponents feel some moral superiority.

Leave the judgment to God - he alone has all the facts; he alone knows all the secrets of the heart; he alone has the right to judge. For our part we must simply love.

The Taliban in Afghhanistan set up a policeforce to guard the morality of the people; in reality they became tyrannical oppressors, using the guise of religion to contrrol and dominate.

Christ rules through love alone; so lay down your arms of self-righteousness and pious indignation and give so real witness to the Lord who rules by love and humble service.

john chrysostom


You are right to say that Christ rules by love, and He loves sinners so much that he respects their choice if they stubbornly refuse to renounce their sins and turn to Him.

He respects that selfish choice so much that He lets them have what they want, their own will separated from Him for all eternity – in hell.

St. John the Baptist preached about the need for repentance to prepare the way for Our Lord, and then Christ himself went about teaching that people should repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.

Repentance is a prerequisite for approaching the Lord.

I grow weary of the sappy effeminate Jesus that liberals constantly try to foist on Christians.

The only-loving, all-accepting, never-condemning, Jesus, who preached tolerance and love is not the Jesus of Scripture.

That false Christ is a fantasy invented by people who don't love the real Jesus.

The Jesus of Scripture said things like this:

"O faithless and perverse generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you?" (Matthew 17:17)

He also said:

"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. (Matthew 18:15-17)


"There you will weep and gnash your teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves thrust out." (Luke 13:28)


"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither enter yourselves, nor allow those who would enter to go in. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you traverse sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves. "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, `If any one swears by the temple, it is nothing; but if any one swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred? And you say, `If any one swears by the altar, it is nothing; but if any one swears by the gift that is on the altar, he is bound by his oath.' You blind men! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? So he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by everything on it; and he who swears by the temple, swears by it and by him who dwells in it; and he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by him who sits upon it. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law, justice and mercy and faith; these you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel! "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you cleanse the outside of the cup and of the plate, but inside they are full of extortion and rapacity. You blind Pharisee! first cleanse the inside of the cup and of the plate, that the outside also may be clean. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. So you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but within you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, saying, `If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' Thus you witness against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechari'ah the son of Barachi'ah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. (Matthew 23:13-35)

The fact is that Jesus threatened the faithful with damnation more frequently in Scripture than He spoke to them of heaven.

Liberal silliness which seeks to present a counterfeit Christ and has a hissyfit any time anyone warns or admonishes sinners, or even dares to call anything a sin are not following the Master they profess to love.

Neither are such people truly loving sinners by their enabling tolerance and silence.

True love seeks the good of the beloved.

"The Son of Man came to seek and save that which was lost." (Luke 19:10)

How can the lost be saved if they don't know they're lost?

Denver Catholic

"Inviting", thanks for the words of support, but the implied sarcasm there deosnt help. I know Godfrey because I used to be him in terms of my resistance to the truth and picking at *perceived* (note its not actual - like Paul I assume "a good heart" on your part) sarcasm or hypocracy. Please be sure to show a bit of gentleness.

And as far as "greater love" goes, I don;t know Godfrey, I just see his place having been in a similar one. We are all called to empathy, if not sympathy. Gentleness and love should be the way admonishment is brought, at least at first.

Enough of that.

Godfrey, sometimes you have to just "let go and let God", put down your defenses and ralize there although the words may be harsh and might worry you, they are not intended that way (at leat I hope not). God loves all of us, no matter how much we mess up - as long as we are willing to repent, ask forgiveness and at least try not sin again.

We are all destined to fall short of that mark - we are all so very human. Were we not, Christ would not have needed to go to the Cross for us. We should all be overjoyed at the fortune of a God that loves us so much that He would do that for us - without us asking!

And never foget: His capacity to fogive exceeds our capacity to sin. Think about how remarkable that truly is - its one of the things that amazed me when I came to the Church, and continues to amaze me even now. Of all the gifts, the presence in the Eucharist, the body of Christ on earth in the person of the Church and all the help it brings, the Word incarnate and in the Bible, its that capacity to forgive that I always thank Him for in my prayers. No matter how bad my sins, they are as lost as tears in the ocean, God's forgiveness is undescribably vast. All we need to do is ask.

I am just too tired to argue over this further. I have a trip to prepare for.

Folks, please remember to pray for those who have fallen away, and for those who have returned and are facing great challenges.

Inviting Catholic

Dear Denver Catholic, I am so aprreciative of your kindness to Godfrey Mannion. You do realize that Godfrey is playing games with the people he is pretending to converse with. I trust you that you might feel you were just like Godfrey at one time, but trust me you were not. Godfrey is secretly laughing and getting a kick out of the people he thinks he is fooling with his dialogue. There was really no implied sarcasim towards Godfrey. There was only honest truth. The Godfrey Mannion of this blog has not an inkling of interest in listening to people that he thinks he is fooling. It is always preferable to have charity, but remember the words don't cast pearls before swine. Do not understimate the many personalities of Godfrey Mannion. Maybe even Godfrey dosen't know who he is. Do you know who you are today Godfrey? You were made in the image and likeness of God. Thats who you really are, no matter how you try to disguise yourself.

Denver Catholic

"Godfrey" is a prankster, but I was giving himthe benefit of a doubt in the slim shance that he was legitimate. In my other possed, I figured he was probably a troll, and had "sick puppet" identities, that were just revealed under another topic's posts.

Even knowing that, I'd still treat him the same in the off chance that it might actually sink in, in a few years. I know because I used to do the same things - make fun of religious and try to goad them, tease them and generally disparge them. I didnt have God knock my "off my ass" like Saul, but I did have a bit of "come to Jesus" moment that cuased my conversion. And at times like that, experiences like these do come to mind, and they buttress the belief that is newly formed.

Remember the parable of the mustard seed - and remember that what appears to be stony ground can turn to fertile soil with enough rain and care.

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