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Sunday, June 11, 2006



Oh my gosh, the likeness in the cartoon to Bisop Tod is, next cartoon...the Bishop pulling one of the kneelers to their feet...What a travesty Orange County has received as a morning prayers include a conversion of heart for this man to redeem his soul for eternity before he dies...also, for changes in his "personal lifestyle"!!

I am certain that Father Tran was following orders from headquarters. It is a sad day for the Church when kneeling is banned. The L.A. Times article shed light on the liberal chaotic thinking of the Diocese of Orange. It was unbelivable to read that we "stand" to show the dignity of man! This is right from Bishop Brown. Why does Bishop Brown continue to disobey and ignore the Holy See?


I am growing in affection for this Bishop of Orange. He is right to taker a stand against an elitist few who deem themselves holier than the rest of the plebs. I applaud his courage - and as for the silly cartoon, these people are no kneeling angels - more like troublesome devils. He is the Bishop appointed ultimately by God and should be obeyed.


The faithful have been deceived. The bishop cannot force posture. KNEELING IS THE NORM, unless the bishop determines otherwise. What has been concealed from people is that the bishop may tell the faithful to stand , but only for a SPECIFIC STATED PURPOSE, NEVER AS A NORM. Have you been deceived, or are you one of those who are deliberately concealing the truth? It's one or the other. Which is it?


Another thing Dubliner,
How much courage does it take to bully " the elite few" as you put it? What courage? The bishop talks through his subordinates, and hides otherwise. It is the people who will not be bullied and who keep pounding away at the deception who have true courage.


I have travelled extensively in Europe and the custom in many countries is to stand for the greater part of the Mass. What is important here is the unity expressed by a common posture; it should mirror the unity in faith of the assembly. It seems very divisive to me that a few should choose to make this an issue and focus of dissent, it is mischevious and serves only to fracture the unity which should be manifest at the Eucharistic Assembly. When in doubt - do what your Bishop tells you - if he's wrong he will answer for it before the judgment seat - you will be commended for your obedience. If he's right and you do as he wishes you are on a winner also - so the Golden Rule - If in doubt obey your Bishop.
(What a daft issue to be discussing!)

Mark Hillingsworth

Dear Father Dubliner, How many parishioners or fellow clergy did you rebuke for wanting to kneel? I bet you had your own share of bullying. Maybe authority has been removed from you, so your only source of peace is to warden Orthodox blogs with, "I still know everything" comments. I wonder if you were cruel to fellow priests who were your subordinates. Your sharp tone tells me you have had much practice. It is Bishop Brown who sent a memo supporting homosexual domestic parnership. To further his agenda (Anti-Catholic) he must remove belief in the True Presence. How does he accomplish this? He removes kneeling, yanks up Catholics who kneel, hides Tabernacles and so on. You can follow him right off the cliff Dubliner, but Rome says we have a right to kneel. Why don't you blog with the likes of Bishop Brown? I know why? You can't stand that Catholics are reminding their Shepherds and priests that they are not the gods to be adored. We obey the Teachings, we obey the Bishops, no matter how gay or foul their personal lives may be. Their authority stems from Rome. We obey Rome and Rome says do not take away the right of a Catholic to kneel down and Adore God. Why does this eat at your conscience, Dubliner? Go have a large shot of your best Irish whiskey and pray for Bishop Brown and your own conversion. In light of all the scandals that have rocked our Catholic Church, Bishops who aided and shuffled molesters,Catholic schools are abysmal failures, abortion is rampant, but you elitists have forgotten the humility of kneeling to ask Our Lord forgiveness. Why should God assist us when the Bishop Browns of the Church have convinced themselves and you that nothing is wrong or corrupt. So stay on your feet and show God that you are His Equal. Dubliner...things are so bad that you should be paying people to kneel. Please save your examples of traveling in Europe, with their customs. The Churches in Europe are as empty as your Catholic logic!


Maybe in Ireland it is common for laypeople to blindly follow the orders of superiors, no matter how clearly wrong the superiors are. However, Americans take a certain pride in refusing to follow orders from superiors that are clearly wrong. Bishop Brown is wrong (no surprise about that). He is doing this because he is power hungry and he will only get away with it if the laypeople let him. Here's one vote for hoping the American laypeople will fight for what is right.

I go to St. Mary's and it is indeed the few, but well placed, who are demanding customs and kneeling in this Parish, not to mention at least 5 other issues concerning Novus Ordo Mass features and Altar items that they demand change over. Seems that the whole world is getting on with the Novus Ordo Mass but not this bunch. The 'few but well placed' have a sense of entitleship and ownership when they are clearly the minority and have not the numbers for maintaing any 'tradition' here at St.Marys.
Most of this is about them and their inability to roll with the changes that this Parish has been insulated from for over 20 years. We all went through this,now when it finally comes to St.Mary's (Novus Ordo Mass) they rationalize why they shouldnt obey combined with the irrational fear of the loss of 'holiness' in their worship.

Kneeling during the 'Agnus Dei' has not been the major issue of what they are concerned about... there are many, but you wouldnt know it from the media focus.

For me the obedience to the Bishop is easy in these changes and aside from liturgy there is not much that a Bishop can demand of me.

However, its not a very good Bishop and the Bishop is a liberal Bishop in the cast of Cardinal Mahoney of Los Angeles. But they use this as a basis of protest and and they use this as a leverage in their selfish fight. I would be all about protesting the Bishop and bringing to light what I consider rash and irresponsible leadership. But these people are motivated for their own gain only. So consequently I see it not as something good for the Church but something motivated for shortsighted personal gain over control of their parish liturgy only.

If the Bishop were to acceded tomorrow, or more properly if the Bishop were to never change anything at this parish. These people would have no fight with Bishop Brown and in that I see selfishness, because Bishop Brown has had the licit right to do what he has been doing despite the need to coddle and be pastoral towards the St. Marys parishioneers.

The protesting parishioneers arguments tend to circulate towards the change from the Tridentine Mass towards the Novus Ordo being related to the rise of all societies problems worldwide which would notably include the Sexual Revolution, Protestantism, and the rise of Secular Humanism. They demand that certain features of the Novus Ordo not be at their parish, Communion under both species and the Sign of Peace not be a part of their Mass.

Leo Wong

The American bishops considered this important for the USA. For example, from the transcripts of the bishops's discussions of the American adaptation of GIRM 43:

Cardinal Theodore McCarrick [Newark]: I have listened with awe, not untinged with anxiety, to this discussion. I appreciate Cardinal Law's intention to bring us all together, but we're dealing with something here which really affects the piety of our people. And I would think that a decision that we would make abruptly at this time, without any catechesis, without any preparation, would be a very unwise thing to do....

I think we really need to listen to our people; we really need to prepare them for any changes we might want to make. This is something that really affects them very, very deeply and very, very dearly. I just have a concern that if we do something in the course of fifteen minutes here at this meeting that could disrupt the prayer life of our people, liturgical practices of our people, we'd be making a great mistake. So I hope that we will not pursue any determination to make a change at this time.

Everyone should read the transcripts before commenting on this controversy.

A friend

Dear Ann, It is painfully obvious that you have misunderstood the people at St. Mary's.
The fact that your husband is a deacon should not put you on the defensive. The deacon is a wonderful and kind man. He has no bitterness towards anyone. Yo would do well to follow his example. Many peple have noticed your inner conflicts. You need to trust in God and smile once in awhile!

okay I will smile more often.;-)
But my name is not Ann,I'm male,not married,
and I've never had sexual relations with
a Deacon. ugghh!

Re:For me the obedience to the Bishop is easy in these changes and aside from liturgy there is not much that a Bishop can demand of me.

A friend

Dear Ann, Real men don't say ugghh! No wonder your not a fighter. You are a lukewarmer! Thank you for smiling more often. At least you will have that beautiful attribute.



I have been ordained to the priesthood! Alleluia. But alas ony by Mark Hillingsworth of this blog! So I wont be saying Mass just yet - unless of course he's a bishop? But I think I need a scalp massage from him first.
Grow up Mark!


This kneeling issue...they need to take a vote. One vote to settle the whole thing. There's just too much division over something so little - doubtless it reveals greater problems - but for the kneeling issue, they could vote. Both sides have great devotion to their cause, but someone is going to have to give in.
A simple majority vote is what should be cast.


Godfrey? What happened to your vibrant compassion? How are you showing that Cristian love by your response? You have to practice what you sometimes preach. How can anyone recognize Christ in your scalp massage comment. I thought that hurling back names was labeling people. I thought that labels were for jars. Godfrey, if you had the opportunity right before you faced Almighty God to reach out and talk to Bishop Brown, what would you say to him? I am not basing this on the kneeling issue, which I do feel is important. I am basing it on the sending of that memo, which caused great lack of trust in his leadership. Sad to say Godfrey, many priests have lost their respect for,(not the office of Bishop)Bishop Brown's poor judgment. What would you say to him about that memo? Now "please" be the "vibrant," loving Dubliner in your response!


I'm sorry JDM! Our faith is not based on votes. Votes are what legalized abortion. As long as you are in favor of the popular theme, I think Scripture has quite a few votes for kneeling before God. The Holy See says do "not" take away the "right" to kneel down and Adore Jesus. Rome is the rock, and Rome has spoken. The matter is settled. I vote for obeying Rome!


This is the way I see it:
Catholics have a right to kneel. The bishop has a right to his authority in the Catholic Church. So what takes precedence? The Catholic faithful's right, or the authority of the bishop?
Charity, I say, takes precedence. To kneel or not to kneel...whatever. There is no "right" and their is no "wrong" to this issue. There are only beliefs that are obviously based on personal devotion. Personally, we all adore God differently. Publically, there needs to be a consensus for the sake of unity.
Rome is the rock - but it's so far away... The poor bishop ought to be respected somewhat for the office he holds. He has his devotion, too.


Sometimes, I just can't believe what I read on these blogs...a parishioner at St. Mary's referring to the "faithful" as "a select few"...if someone such as "Ann" (I guess, but, I think it's initials MG) were willing to learn the issues they would better understand that it is apparent...the kneeling issues show ADORATION to God...but, it is a microcosm of the bigger issues that, since Vatican II, have "dummied down" the Catholic faith! Guess what? We believe in progress...we HAVE computers and touch dial phones! It is strategic, systematic and tactical, the loss of reverence in the Catholic Church...alter girls, lay ministers, guitar masses, cumbayyaa services touchie feelie activities in the Holy Mass...terms like "diversity", "obedience", "justice", the "rights of all", are the terms of Marxism in the 19th century...people, you are all being duped to PROMOTE a new Church...a Church with homosexuality in it's ministries (and leadership) of STAGGERING's all connected...wake up like the "select few" at St. Mary's have...take back the Catholic Church and it's beautiful traditions...


Oh, and by the way...the "select few" number (including family support in the weekly hand out by "Restore the Sacred") over 80 people...that does not include the additional 220 handouts made weekly at the masses (yes, 300 get handed out weekly with comments like "keep up the good work", or "we support your efforts", that from parishioners that are nervous about their name in print for fear of retrobution from a "fear tactic" administrator and Bishop)

We are not afraid...change always comes thru the laity!!

God Bless!


You refer to a set of practices as the "new Church." This is not the "new" Church, this is the current Church. If you do not follow these practices, you are in rebellion.

And anyway, I play guitar at Mass.

Kevin in Dallas


Although the "norm" throughout Europe and Ireland may be to stand, the "norm" in the United States is to kneel. What this episode demonstrates is the foolishness by one Bishop and the rancor he is creating within his own parish. I'm sure if the Bishop in your diocese started changing the "norms" for Mass as a way to exercise his authority, there would be an outcry in the pews. And if you find the issue so "daft" then why do you continue to comment upon it?



I referred to it as a new church...their church, not, the new church...semantics are improper on your posturing of the Catholic Church in Orange county...they do want it their IS a power move...anyone with their eyes open would see that...also, I can see why you would enjoy the modern mass, then,...because you can strum your E7 chords to the melodic tones of "On Eagle's Wings" or "They Will Know We Are Christians By Our Love" etc...very reverent music, eh, David?


Dear Leo,
I have read the transcripts and Bishop Brown is clearly not following the decisions that were made at that time. Rome will not just swoop in and discipline these errant bishops and priests. That's been proven. The corruption is too widespread. The laity must fight for their spiritual Food because these wolves are taking it from us, and they know what they are doing. The courageous people at St. Mary's are not selfish, they are selfless! They sacrifice time, and sleep and comfort, and endure ridicule from all sides. And it's true they have many supporters who remain anonymous. They understand that God does not demand this kind of heroism from everyone, and they realize that it is God who gives them the Grace to do this work, through the prayers of many. Perhaps fellow-parishoners who openly criticize these faithful warriors are motivated by guilt, because from what I've observed, they have procured for themselves places of honor at St. Marys by openly turning on their parish family members. There's nothing new under the sun.

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