Honor Legitimate Authority and Kneel after Agnus Dei

     I have a lot of sympathy for 'traditionalist' concepts in our liturgy, but some 'traditionalists' need to check their ego's and obey the legitimate authority of the bishop.

     Whether we personally like it or not, the bishop has the authority to dictate posture after the Agnus Dei. If the bishop, within his canonical authority, decides that our Orange County Catholic community is going to stand after Agnus Dei, then we have a moral obligation to obey. Those who claim to be 'traditionalists' have no more right to be cafeteria Catholics than progressive Catholics.

     Anyone who disobeys faces a difficult challenge of determining whether or not they are disobeying because, truly and deeply in their well-formed conscience, they cannot possibly obey, or whether there is pride and/or habit involved.

     If it is the former--their conscience--then they must follow their conscience. But this is very high hurdle. They can only legitimately kneel if their conscience tells them that it is WRONG--sinful--to stand. They cannot legitimately kneel if their conscience merely tells them that kneeling is simply a 'better' way to appreciate the Real Presence. That is because the obligation to 'better appreciate' is less than the obligation to the Church to avoid publicly undermining the bishop's authority and causing scandal.

     But even if they do decide it is 'wrong' to stand and that they must kneel, they must do it in a manner that does not show disrespect to the bishop nor cause scandal by undermining the bishop's authority. They must do it in as reclusive a manner as possible, i.e. near the back of the church during Mass and during Masses when few will see (6am Sunday). The moral obligation to avoid scandal is still present.

     What bothers me about the 'traditionalists' being talked about in the articles is that they are publicly disobeying their bishop's legitimate authority. Not only does this undermine the bishop (and Church's) authority, but it has the added danger of misleading the young or less-formed into erroneous beliefs and actions. It has the danger of teaching the young that it is acceptable to defy the bishop's authority, and to do it in the newspapers.

     That is  pretty clearly putting their personal thoughts about the liturgy ahead of the bishop's authentic authority in the matter. Doing it publicly is clearly causing scandal within the parish.

     Any member of the parish council who finds themselves unable to obey the bishop's authentic authority on standing after the Agnus Dei should resign to avoid causing scandal. If they refuse to resign and continue to undermine the bishop's legitimate authority, then they should absolutely be removed.

     We are a Catholic COMMUNITY, not a gaggle of Catholic individuals. Too often our personal desires and our normal American-thinking individualism causes us to put our personal thoughts above our community and Church obligations. A desire to appreciate some of the things of post-Trent (traditionalist) Catholicism is nice, but to insist on our own way (i.e. post-Trent liturgy) despite the legitimate teaching authority of the Church/bishop, and to do so publicly, and to do so in a manner that encourages others to violate Church/bishop authority, is incredibly selfish and scandalous.

     If you TRULY believe that it is somehow sinful to stand after the Agnus Dei, then at least maintain your silence about it and do not lead others to believe that public disobedience of a bishop's authority is acceptable.

Comments

[Bryce Todd]

Unbeliavable. You truly misunderstand the Catholic obligation here. I am a parashioner here in Huntington beach.

We truly have an obligation to stand up to an apostate, hertical, pro-gay, satanic bishop.

Or else you are one of those Catholics that thionk athanasisus was wrong to stand up to hertical church authorites, or that St Joan of Arc was. Both of which were rahabiliated by the Church. Or lese maybe you think St. Paul was wrong to "resist to the face" St peter?

All you Novus Ordo types have a warped idea od obedience. We are to remain devoted to catholic Rome, eternal Rome, not modernist bishops.

Pople like you will be deceived by the ANti-christ when he comes.

[Dean]

Bluntly stated Bryce. I have to agree with you that people like Deus Volt are definitely deceived. Maybe he/she will wake up before the AntiChrist arrives. Right now though, people like that are leading others closer to the pit with their false sense of loyalty.

[Some Day]

And the conscience thing is limmited too,
as we aren't saints or very holy people to say that our clear there. We are so full of sophisms that we make huge and powerful doctrines to justify our errors. I think kneeling is the correct thing to do, but if the Bishop says, well we have no choice. There is no sin for obeying. The way not kneeling could be a sin is if we do it our of lack of respect for God and not follow the 1st commandment. But we do respect God ( I hope you do) and so to comply with the 1st commandment, we will honor Our Lord's commands when He started the Apostolic Succesion. It is that simple. Anyways, keep up your hopes, the Church is eternal, not the current bishops. If we relied on human efforts and decisions, the Church wouldn't have lasted past the Accension.

Regardless on whos side anyone is on, even I, who prefer and KNOW ( not just mere opinions) that it is CORRECT to KNEEL, must admit that the bishop is the legitamate authority. And if cannon law gives him in some way shape or from the right to restrict kneeling, then we must not kneel.
Judas is hell, even though he is a bishop.
So that bishops must be adored and followed like they are saints is too extreme also.

But I think we must do things correctly.

The Papal Nunncio. Cannonists and other ties in Rome, excert an influence most of you all would never know. Rome knows things before the CIA, trust me. They must know of the bishop.
Why has nothing happen?
Diplomacy.
Rome is eternal. It can take its time.
Just pray and be obedient.
Slavery is wrong, but even the Scriptures tell us, if you are a slave, obey.
The bishop is WRONG in stoping the kneeling, yet he has the LEGITAMATE POWER to do so.

But, there is a chance he doesn't. Don't justify disobediance with this, but the cannon just might need a bit more study
ing

[Fr. Ryan Humphries]

The law is clear. The conference determines posture - not the individual bishop. The rest of the world stands - but the US bishops say we are to kneel after the Agnus. Bishop Liberal over there does not have the right to legislate a posture contrary to the conference - the US bishops have tried to democratize the church now they must reap the atrocities that flow from it - the bishop is wrong.

[Jack]

Maybe if the church would listen to the traditionalists-instead of allowing inovation after inovation thanks to the New Order of Mass and so called Liturgical Reform-we would not have Bishops who dont know what is allowed to be inovated and what is NOT!

For goodness sakes-has anyone ever taken the time to look at the New Mass side by side with the Traditional Latin Mass, first off about 75% of the prayers have been gutted or removed in the new Mass, and the priest has option after option as to what greeting to say, on and on. It is just that, a mass that is basically a celebration and not a sacrifice as I was always taught in my catechism (Baltimore that is) that a mass is not a mass without a true sacrifice and if one can not kneel while saying ""Lamb of God" or during the consecration of Our Lord-then when will one ever kneel?

[JDM]

The God-that-I'm-aware-of would care less if you knelt or not. What the God-that-I'm aware-of cares about is something far more than a simple human posture.

I've decided that Catholics have too many rules that they end up fussing over...consequently, they are all divided in their hearts just like other Christians are divided in sects.

[Dubliner]

The Tridentine Mass is history - like it or not! Dominus Vobiscum.

[pikkumatti]

Finally, Deus Volt brings some sense and perspective to this non-debate.

If the issues with the bishop are that he is "apostate, hertical, pro-gay, satanic" as Bryce says, then have the courage to join the fight on those issues. But to use those issues as justification to disobey the bishop on kneeling vs standing is cowardly.

[James]

Well, at least one of us can infallibly read the soul of Bishop Brown. Disagreement becomes resentment; resentment becomes anger; anger becomes detraction; detraction becomes disobiedience; and disobedience becomes scandal and wholesale character assassination. Wonderful. This is the problem with scandal: It does not merely disagree with others, it assumes they have evil intentions. Know this: you can do your best (all legitimate ways) to get the kneeling issue--and others--changed, but, please, keep your words civil and honorable. Would any of you talk to your spouse who is driving you crazy with the same repetitive actions/attitudes as you do the bishop? I doubt it.

[Joseph D'Hippolito]

The fundamental problem lies with church bureaucrats (and I include bishops in that bunch) trying to legalistically regulate the correct posture during Mass. If people wish to kneel, let them kneel. If people wish to stand, let them stand.

Catholicism is not about kneeling or standing. It's about serving God and Christ. Indeed, what would Christ Himself think about all this legalistic posturing on the part of bureaucratic busybodies who act as if they have nothing better to do with their time?

[Gloria Balaskas]

Anyone who lives in southern California, who was raised in a CATHOLIC tradition can see what is happening. The word "traditional" is misleading. If you are CATHOLIC you understand the tradition of the Church regarding the meaning of the Mass. Our Catholic Eastern brothers and sisters have held on tightly to the traditions of their Eastern Rites. One Mass, the same Mass everywhere. Once there is a lack of reverence, one looses the sense of God. Let us not fool ourselves and make excuses for what is happening here and all over the United States. Blessed are those who have Bishops and Cardinals that are not forgetting where we have come from.

[Thomistic]

Deus Volt,

You might have spoken with me before posting this thread. I would appreciate that courtesy in the future if you intend to continue posting threads which directly contradict the editorial tone of my threads.

I would have done as much for you if I had known of your existence.

You have given a moral prescription by telling others what you believe they must do.

Here's the problem: The people you have decided to correct by posting your editorial have never demanded that others kneel or accused others of sinning for standing.

In fact, the only one's throwing the word sin around have been Fr. Tran and people working for Bishop Brown in the chancery.

They have not demanded that others kneel. They have only insisted on their own right to do so. A right that is guaranteed by legitimate authority.

They do not make a scene at Mass when they kneel, so your personal requirement in that regard has been met.

They also have the right to publicly address their concerns in accordance with Canon 212 of the Code of Canon Law:

Can. 212 §1 Christ’s faithful, conscious of their own responsibility, are bound to show christian obedience to what the sacred Pastors, who represent Christ, declare as teachers of the faith and prescribe as rulers of the Church.

§2 Christ’s faithful are at liberty to make known their needs, especially their spiritual needs, and their wishes to the Pastors of the Church.

§3 They have the right, indeed at times the duty, in keeping with their knowledge, competence and position, to manifest to the sacred Pastors their views on matters which concern the good of the Church. They have the right also to make their views known to others of Christ’s faithful, but in doing so they must always respect the integrity of faith and morals, show due reverence to the Pastors and take into account both the common good and the dignity of individuals.

You mentioned legitimate authority in your post. You are right to say Bishop Tod Brown has the right to use his authority to create a norm in his own diocese (a norm which differs from the norm in almost every other diocese in the country, and which clearly runs contrary to the purpose of giving individual bishops discretion about posture in the GIRM).

Here is where the legitimate authority falls apart. He has the right to set the norm (for now) but he no legitimate authority to demand that his norms for posture are rigidly enforced. The bishop and those who work for him are 100% wrong to claim that kneeling is an act of disobedience. If people have a right to kneel, they can't be committing an act of disobedience to do so. Moreover, they can't be committing a mortal sin to do so.

[Joseph D'Hippolito]

Thomistic, you forgot one important point:

If honoring God comes at the expense of honoring men, then so be it.

Brown, Tran and their supporters are not interested in having people honor God. They're interesting in having people blindly honor their power and position. These posers are merely hiding behind their legitimate authority to encourage such deference, which does nothing but massage their overly large egos.

[john chrysostom]

“Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning." (1 Timothy 5:19-20) [Note: An elder was a priest.]

"And when Kephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face because he clearly was wrong.   For, until some people came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to draw back and separated himself, because he was afraid of the circumcised.   And the rest of the Jews (also) acted hypocritically along with him, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.  But when I saw that they were not on the right road in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Kephas in front of all,  'If you, though a Jew, are living like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews ?'” (Galatians 2:11-14)

"When there is an imminent danger for the Faith, Prelates must be questioned, even publicly, by their subjects." – St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica II, II, q. 33, a. 4

"It is better that scandals arise than the truth be suppressed." – Pope St. Gregory the Great

"The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops." – St. Athanasius

"The road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops." – Saint John Eudes

“The road to hell is paved with the skulls of erring priests, with bishops as their sign posts." – St. John Chrysostom

[JDM]

What do you hope to accomplish by bringing in your doom prophecies, John Chrysostom?

Joseph D' Hippolito-
I really admire your last two posts.

I question the validity of the Catholic Church's book of Canon Law. A book of rules...as though human nature conforms to words in print.

Maybe that's a big problem. The Church is always trying to chase people down with rules and doctrine, as though truth can be so cast in stone.

[john chrysostom]

Julie,

I have read your posts with some interest. You frequently express positions that are contrary to Church teaching, as well as complain about any insistence on following the moral law or Church teaching.

Why is that? Why do you strive to thwart the spread of authentic Catholic doctrine?

You seem to think your position is enlightened, but you seem completely unconcerned that your views and values are at odds with the teachings of the Church Christ founded.

[JDM]

John Chrysostom
I don't care if I express positions contrary to traditional Church teaching. For me, it's about moving on with it all, not trying to be bagged up by old knowledge.

I'm not hostiliy arguing with you. Pardon me for my bitterness, though. I mean what I say with full respect, so let me make that clear.

You mention authentic Catholic doctrine. Others mention "holding on to the faith?" My goodness. Are they THAT afraid of losing it all? Are they THAT insecure as to the faith they possess?

What exactly is this faith which is so in danger nowadays?? A word or two in the consecration? A gesture here and there in church? Do they place their entire faith on THAT?!

(And did I unknowingly post my name somewhere? :> )

-Julie Diane

[Richard]

As stated above, no bishop has the right to countervene a legitimate decision of the episcopal coference (approved by Rome).
That having been said, I find it interesting that people imply a lack of reverence in those who choose not to kneel when the GIRM, itself, says the normal posture following the Agnus is "standing". Is Rome legislating irreverence?

[Kelly]

I would quietly kneel and sit in the back row. I do not merely respect Jesus by bowing, I worship Him by kneeling.

Maybe this works better here!

This headline (of the 2nd linked article)is quite appropriate here- especially because of the payout of the Diocese of Orange being the largest in history combined with the history of the Diocese over the past 6 years
(history)
http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/abbott/060420
and the statement by Father Joseph Fenton (Diocese of Orange spokesman), quoted by one Diocese of Orange woman. "If we did that, (remove homosexual priests from the Diocese of Orange) there'd be so few priests left, we'd have to turn the church over to lay people to run it!"

"IT STARTS AT THE TOP Perverts Do Not Proliferate Without The Prelate Making It Possible!"

(article)
http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/2002Sep/sep02btf.htm

After you read the articles - consider and decide to whom you trust the fate of your eternal soul.

Remember, Martin Luther was also a priest, and Bishop Weakland (Milwaukee)and O'Brien (Phoenix)- bishops.
http://www.unknownnews.net/030618pedopriests.html

[Leo Wong]

For those interested:

A Letter from Mary Tripoli

[Eric]

If I believe in the Real Presence, then I must kneel, because every knee shall bend. The Magi knelt. St. Michael the Archangel prostrated. We shouldn't be standing.

[fedup]

The bottom line for me is that I am not going to follow the directions of any priest or bishop that clearly contradict the teachings and doctrine of the Church.

[Deus Volt]

Interesting comments about the Real Presence and "I must kneel".

Is it true that according to the GIRM (the rules governing mass for the universal church), you are supposed to stand during the Eucharistic prayers? Is it true that the US is the place that has taken an exception to this practice by permitting kneeling?

So how can following the general rules of the universal church and the direction of the local bishop with authority be 'wrong'?