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Monday, August 21, 2006

Comments

 Atlanta Catholic's Wife

I think that the Diocese of Orange is in need of great disciplining from someone. The Vatican or God. Whichever comes first!

Brian Day

Nice photoshop job. Is the picture from Reuters?

Kevin in Dallas

Where did that photo come from?

james rich

That picture can't be for real.

Ann

This is an actual photo of St. Mary's by the Sea Catholic Church in Huntington Beach, CA - you know, the one where kneeling after the Agnus Dei is a mortal sin?
Well, the signage has been "toyed with" by a clever soul with an ax to grind (many at Saint Mary's have an ax to grind - legitimately!)

The latest insanity is regarding the "financial problems" that caused Fr. Martin Tran to tell Fr. Mackin that he would have to move out. (Fr. Mackin is an 80 year old true to the faith priest who has lived and worked at the church for the past 11 years.) Can you imagine - with the wealth (and "priest shortage!!) in the Diocese of Orange that we'd send a good, hardworking priest out on the street!!

With no where to go - he turned to his friends, who have generously offered to support him. With that done, Fr. Martin now says he can stay.

Now - It was Bishop Brown who removed the Tridentine Mass from the parish 2 years ago. (The parish lost about 200 families because of that and the weekly numbers went down from about $10,000 per week to about $7,000 per week (one MONTH of that additional income would cover the cost of Fr. Mackin's ANNUAL salary and board!!) Then it was Fr. Sy Nguyen, (Canon Laywer now in the tribunal at the diocese office - used to be administrator at St. Mary's)and now Fr. Martin Tran (administrator)who 1. refuses to allow Gregorian chant (the music of the church that the GIRM says should have "pride of place in the liturgy" to be sung at 3 of the masses (the 10am and 12noon masses will be next))2. Mandates the hand shaking, 3.adds cantors in the sanctuary (at $50 per mass)to help us sing "more protestant music" and bellows during the communion (when we're supposed to be preparing our souls to receive the King of Kings and then giving a personal thanksgiving) 4. calls kneeling after the Agnus Dei a mortal sin 5.writes a personal letter to 55 parish families to tell them to "leave the parish and the diocese" if they won't stand after the Agnus Dei, 6.supports the ordination of women (lost another 200 families when those things kicked in) 7. and this week he cancelled the 7 am daily mass (THAT will really help bring the money in!!)

Now we're down to about $3500 average per week, sometimes as low as $2,900.

So, in order to alleviate the money problem THAT HE CAUSED - he sends an 80 year old priest packing! (the money he pays the cantors who come in from other parishes could pay Fr. Mackin.) and closes the office on Saturday am (putting a single mother of 7 from the parish out of a part time job).

Fr. Tran also, within the last month, went to the St. Vincent de Paul group within the parish (they give out food 2 afternoons a week to the poor and homeless and deliver meals and food vouchers on Thanksgiving, Easter and Christmas, (when they also deliver toys.))
and asked if they could make a donation to the church, because donations were down. This was AFTER he kicked Fr. Mackin out. (Fr. Johnson, our pastor for 25 years, used to donate from the excess parish income to St. Vincent de Paul. That man knew how to grow a parish- from 500 families to 1600 families!! God Bless him! (we're close to a total of 500 attendees per SUNDAY now!)

Fr. Martin Tran, on the other hand,would take food from the mouths of homeless people to make his bottom line look good to the bishop rather than just leave the beautiful reverent Masses at St. Mary's alone.

Don't think our illustrious bishop doesn't know what's going on here. Fr. Martin Tran is an ADMINISTRATOR - NOT a pastor - which means he has no authority except the word from the bishop - They speak almost DAILY! Bishop Brown is the man orchestrating the destruction of this parish, and using Fr. Martin Tran has his "hit man".

We used to have standing room only at our 9 am Sunday (approx 380) - now there's fewer than 150. Our Tridentine used to have about 250 - now, 40.

They are systematically destroying the parish - Why? so Bishop Brown can say, "It's not supporting itself, we'll have to close it," and the most orthodox traditional parishioners in the DIOCESE will be absorbed into the most liberal and heretical parish in the diocese, Sts. Simon and Jude. And who get's the money (approx $10 million worth of land and property)? Sts. Simon and Jude. But they'll probably get some "bill for services" from the Diocese - or they'll pay back some old loan that they had received from the diocese, we'll never know.

It's coming folks - they're dismantling this parish piece by piece. I'm sure Bishop Brown thought this would be over by now, but... he had no idea!

This situation is straight from Satan, with Bishop Brown pulling the strings, and Father Martin Tran as his marionette.

Sorry, but this one really burns me.
Ann

Dude

I'm literally cracking up...did somebody actually insinuate that the Vatican might actually discipline a liberal, dissenting (from what I might ask at this point) homo priest, bishop or diocese? Bwaaaaahaahahhahhaa!

brother lesser

Blessed are those religious who have no joy or delight except in the most holy words and works of the Lord, and who use them to lead others to the love of God in joy and gladness.

Admonition 20

Perhaps we should harken back to St.Francis and "Go, rebuild my church, which as you can see is falling into complete ruin."

abjectio

Thank God, thank God, Thank GOD for the Society of St. Pius X.

Michael

Perhaps I'm in the minority here, but I do not think that a genuine Catholic would criticize a bishop to the extent that many have in these comments. Regardless of whether we think that we know more about the faith than a bishop or imagine that we are the guardians of orthodoxy in opposition to a particular bishop, we really should accord a respect to the office. I'm not saying that you must love the man who is bishop, but all Catholics ought to respect the man who holds the office. Otherwise, traditional Catholics are no better than their liberal counterparts who openly criticize bishops and the pope.

The Vatican will decide whether or not to act in the matter. Most likely, though, the Vatican will permit Bishop Brown to exercise the apostolic mission that was entrusted to him in the manner that he sees fit.

Katerina Marie has a post on this here:
Faithful to Apostle and Prophet

Thank God for SSPX? I don't see how committing the opposite error as the Diocese of Orange is in any way a blessing from God. I'll stick with the Vatican-approved Bishop of Orange way before joining any organization that revises Church history and fancies itself more Catholic than the pope.

Mary Ann Kreitzer

Fulton Sheen said years ago that the laity would save the Church. He urged the laity to hold their pastors accountable.“Who is going to save our Church? Not our bishops, not our priests and religious. It is up to you, the people…. Your mission is to see that your priests act like priests, your bishops like bishops and your religious like religious.” He said this in 1972. Does anyone seriously think things have improved since then?

Bishops and priests who are committing scandal must be corrected. St. Thomas Aquinas said, "even in public."

Those who are standing up against heretical and dissenting bishops and priests are following a noble Church tradition along with the likes of St. Anthony, St. Athanasius, the English martyrs (Remember all those apostate English bishops except for the lone exception of St. John Fisher.), etc.

It is not a virtue to obey your bishop when he is telling you to do something wrong.

Fr. John Hardon, S.J., that saintly priest who was a personal emissary for Pope John Paul II, told retreatants on two Marian catechist retreats I attended to kneel no matter what anyone said, even a priest. Fr. Tran has no right to persecute the parishioners like he's doing. Their resistance is, not only justified, but a good thing. It is following the advice of Bishop Sheen.

Anyone who puts money in the collection basket at that parish is an enabler. Give the money to the Poor Clares, the Little Sisters of the Poor, and the Missionaries of Charity. Many of these bishops are more interested in fleecing the flock than shepherding them. Pray for them, but don't enable them.

Some Day

Wait Mary Ann,
These presbyters may be close to joining their similar Luther (i retract if it is sinful to say so)
but even Our Lord paid the temple tax, regardless of the Pharisees who ran it.
The local church is still cannonically legit and deserves something. Now if they want to add a new pool to the church because of x reasons, than no. Don't donate to that cause.
Just give a decent collection basket donation.

ed

pretty well put, Mary. i have stopped putting money in my parish collection and instead give to various other Catholic organizations such as you mention!

Beeline

The protesters at St. Marys' are only one side of the story and the popular side to boot espcially with the Catholic Blogs. Listening to them you hear all the bad, inane things Fr. Tran has done at the behest of Bshp. Brown. Certainly Fr. Tran is an unnuanced guy, with broken english who says things in a haltingly rude manner when he is under fire. Perhaps 50% of it he cant' help. What you dont hear is the defiance by the protesting
parishioneers who ignore instruction and despise the same elements of the Novus Ordo
Mass that is present through the diocese in
all the faithful conservative churches that are present in Orange County, in fact, throughout the US.

The same protesters will take credit for any good that comes of the protest but pass blame for the destruction of this parish on the Bishop.....they can't see that they too
are complicit with their fuzzy logic. Your burning the ship to defy the Captain/Bishop. St. Mary's is going away
because the local families cant' tolerate the change of the Novus Ordo. Plain and simple.

If all this was about the Bishop then they wouldnt be going to other services at other churches and not donating on Sundays. Sunday donations are down precipitiously and its only a matter of time ?? 1-3 years before they shutter it and sell it.

Perhaps I have a different take on it because I am not emotionally involved else
if I and others were like them, then this
would have happened at each church during the 60's,70's would have seen a cataclysmic upheaval at every single church across the US, with people protesting at every church over liturgical change. Most of it is just plain organized 'holier than thou' childishness.


I am sorry but what most of you dont read
is that the protest there has been an 'In Church' protest with the protesters passing out flyers telling their supporters which parts of the Mass they'll participate in
and how to respond during the 'Sign of the Peace' , Agnus Dei, etc despite the instruction by the priest at the behest of the Bishop who is just making this Church conform to the norms of the Diocese that have been more or less in place for 20 years. Many of these parishioneers are attending services at other local churches
where the Novus Ordo is present in the same
exact format or worse attending St.Simon and Jude the most liberal church in the diocese where Fr. FeelGood is 100% empowered for every Mass innovation that he feels is appropriate. How about the Nun Pastoral Assistant giving a homily and making references to Womens Equality.
(i.e. Mary Tripoli and her favorable talk with Fr. Michael) Very warm and fuzzy.

JMC

I have the following advice from a very orthodox priest, namely, Father John O'Connor, who has produced many audio- and videotapes concerning heresy and heterodoxy in the Church. If you find your pastor engaging in heterodox practices, as long as nothing is done to invalidate the Mass, then you can attend Masses celebrated by him, and you can receive the Sacraments from him, but you don't put anything in the collection. (I might note that my father gave me the exact same advice many years ago, and he grew up and received his Catholic education long before Vatican II was even a twinkle in the eye of the Modernists.) You don't support a heterodox priest.
If, on the other hand, your pastor does things that actually invalidate the Mass (liturgical dancing; improper matter for the Eucharist; improper posture and motions at the Consecration, e.g.), then absolutely DO NOT attend. If you do, you are sinning right along with him. You also don't go to schismatic parishes, no matter how "orthodox" they seem to be. (SSPX, e.g.) The option at that point is to stay home and say the Rosary instead. This is the alternative prescribed by the Vatican.
/
No, the group you want to thank God for is the Priestly Society of St. Peter. They are a relatively new order (about 10-15 years old, I think), under the direct authority of the Pope, not any given diocese, and they focus on the Tridentine Mass and orthodox Catholicism. I guess you could call them SSPX's who are still under the Pope. (;D)

John

JMC, why do you think that the SSPX is schismatic?

Beeline

[quote]
What is the Church anyway? The Catechism says, "the Church is the congregation of all those who profess the faith of Christ, partake of the same sacraments, and are governed by their lawful pastors under one visible Head." It is not enough to have the Faith: one must be subject to one's lawful pastors. Who are these? The Catechism continues, "By 'lawful pastors' we mean those in the Church who have been appointed by lawful authority, and who have therefore a right to rule us. The lawful pastors in the Church are: every priest in his own parish, every bishop in his own diocese, and the Pope in the whole Church." If one is not subject to the lawful pastors, one is not in the Church. Obviously, this subjection does not mean that one must obey sinful commands. It does, however, require that one must obey in all things except sin. There is no question that a person can simply ignore his lawful pastor as if he did not exist. The Catechism of Saint Pius X declares what such a person would be: a schismatic. What is a schismatic? "Schismatics are baptized persons who obstinately refuse obedience to the legitimate pastors, and hence are separated from the Church, even if they do not deny any truth of Faith." There is a problem then of speaking of a "novus ordo" Church, for it contains all those possessing legitimate authority: the Pope, the bishops, and the parish priests.[/quote]

an interesting ex-sspx priest wrote the above: http://www.sspx-schism.com/Roberts.htm

John

Priests of the SSPX are, in fact, legitimate authority. They simply administer the scramaments in their most beautiful and traditional form. They are not separted from Holy Mother Chuch.

Beeline

'Priests of the SSPX....legitimate authority'
Bwahhhhahha!
Lets hear another.

Michael

John,

SSPX priests may administer the following sacraments validly: Eucharist and Baptism by virtue of their ordination (just like Eastern Orthodox priests). But because they do not have a canonical mission from a bishop in union with the pope, their administration of Penance and Marriage is invalid. I wish more SSPX members knew this.

Evangelical Catholicism

Ron


Haven't you learned at this
point that anything connected
with the Novus Ordo, including
their so-called Mass, is satanic? I mean, just what does it take to wake you up?

Rita

That is one true sign! Very telling. To Beeline: What does the militant defense of Catholic doctrine at St. Mary's have to do with SS. Simon and Jude Parish?

Rita

Michael,
are your comments serious? The faithful have the right and obligation to demand sound doctrine. And what's with the astrological and zodiac stuff in the bios?

 A friend

Beeline seems guilt ridden for being a bystander. Thou dost protest too much about the protesters, who are in reality, upholding the rights of a Catholic to be Catholic, including your rights. Beeline please do not view bad things to let off steam when you read this. It is not anyones intention to make someone so obsessive about fellow parishioners. Just pray for these people who have pricked your conscience for the good. Sometimes it takes sandpaper to agitate a Beeline to loosen the rough edges of denial.

Beeline

I'm more conservative than the protesters.
I see the err in their ways and no one to support the other side of what is displayed in the press but me! So if everytime you see the protesters story in a blog/news you dont accuse them of being obsessed.
Nice fruitless try though.
From work,
Beeline

Beeline

Furthermore 'A Friend', try not personalizing your critcisms of me, you should criticize what I say not what you think I am. Got it 'A Friend'! I dont think I've been out of line with anyone on this forum. Nor do I present myself as a Nutcase! So quit the personal [edited by Thomistic for inappropriate content]!

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