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Wednesday, September 13, 2006


Kevin in Dallas

The New York Times considers anything that comes out of the Pope's mouth as inflamatory speech; especially if it might upset the "Religion of Peace."

Bill Wanke

I agree with the Pope about Secularism.
But why did he not Denounce our Pre emptive war on Iraq, based on lies? No weapons of mass destruciton, based on conclusionary report by chief weapons inspectore Duelfer and reported in the USA today. No connection to Saddam and the terrorists or 9/11. 200,000 lives are lost, mostly innocents.
All of our Generals favored containment, not preemptive strikes, the Presidential Neocon staff of Perle, Wolfowitz, Abrahms, Feith, Kristol, Libby, all promoted this war-as there are 20 Billion in oil exports and a quick defeat was certain! Interestingly enough, most off these cats were demoted or fired during other Presidential administrations, but "George W"- I cant close a border Bush, insists on promoting them.
Easier to just blame Islam I gues. The Pope must watch Fox News?



Sounds like you won't be satisfied until the Pope joins and starts aping left-wing "it's all Bush's fault" talking points.

Since the Pope is a man of extraordinary intellect, erudition and faith, that will never happen.

Your "easier to just blame Islam" comment shows you either didn't read the speech or completely misunderstood it. Frankly, I don't see how anyone could read the Holy Father's Regensburg speech and honestly reduce it to "its a blame Islam speech."

Unless one is a New York Times reporter, of course.


The pope's magnificent challenge to Muslims was amazing. Tell us what Mohammad brought to the world that was good. His message has been challenged for centuries, so let's have an honest discussion about reason, religion and Islam. Will some Muslim of note accept the invitation to debate?

Bill Wanke

Pope John Paul 2nd was known as a man of great compassion and did much to improve relations in a strained environment where hate is accepted. I remember him even kissing a koran. This alone upset many Catholics-I dont include myself in that group however.
Ratzinger a recent new elect, has already isolated many in that part of the world, that hate US Foreign Policy, are cycnical and skeptical(and for good reason I might add) about "Western Leaders", be they religious or political. He might've just signed the death warrant of those Christian inhabitants.
Why did te Pope not address Israel in this? For provoking a war & destroying a country, after invading Lebanon and its southern boundary, having 2 soldiers captured and then bargained for imprisioned women, Children and male Palestinian Prisoners by Hezbullah? They violate the Cease fire continuously and have killed 95 thus fire, post cease fire, including 24 children. What am I missing? God Bless.

Bill Wanke

I wont be happy until George W is in an orange jumpsuit and imprisoned for sanctioning hundreds of thousnds of deaths. I am a career Republican and gave money to his compaign of "Compassionate conservatism"

Perhaps you can decipher for me why the Talmud, the Jewish Holy Book which precedes the Old Testament, outlines that Jesus is "In Hell" and was "a sorcerer", that Mary was a harlot ie Whore, daughter of princes and had s_x with many men. (Sanhedrin 106a)
Why it is ok to cheat a gentile? (Mezia 24a)
Why its ok to rob a gentile? (sanhedrin 57a)
why its ok to kill to a gentile(sanhedrin 57a)
Why a gentile is a yiddish Goy=cattle
Why ... I can go on.. would you rather I stop?
Go to your friendly book store and buy a translated copy. Great stuff.
Meanwhile in the Koran, Mary is spoken of with Respect, as is Jesus. Be happy to post.


Maximus, nice posting. Bill, you're at the bottom.
I have always been a big fan of the Greeks, and have always found the Protestant complaint of Catholicism being tainted by Hellenism to be something they would wish to retract, had they known what they were complaining of. It is quite apparent from logic, hisotry both joined with a reading of scripture, that our Jewish fathers (the writers of the New Testament) were steeped within, and operated with a hellenistic mind, coupled with the Jewish religion. In fact, I'll continue to be quite happy of the fact that Catholicism does have the positive aspects of hellenism woven into it's fabric, as this was the way it always was. And yes, to agree with the Pope, there are parts that were unessential, but by and large, the good has been retained, as it contains universal truths.

Bill, are we fighting them over here?
Are we fighting them there? Now add 2 plus 2.
Is it a coincdence that the day after we pulled Sadaam out of his spider-hole, and gave him the public dental exam, that Khadafi gave up his Nuclear weapons program we did not know he had? Did he see the writing on the wall? I would guess seeing Sadaam humiliated is the only reason Khadafi did what he did.

Is Iran in more of a position of power within the middle East? - yes, and probably temporarily (next 2-5 years).

P.S. Your statement that all generals wanted containment is utterly bogus. Also, evidence still points to the fact that Al-Qaida was trained in Northern Iraq. FYI, USA today is not exactly on the level. Duelfer was one of many other inspectors. Iraqi ex-pats and all intelligence, including the same intelligence your liberal friends had when they beat the drum, was the exact same the President had.
Bill, perhaps the Pope knows that confrontation with Islam is inevitable. We should pray and hope for peace, but don't be a fool in the process.


P.S. And whatever did the posted article about the Pope and the 3 stages of de-hellenization of Christianity ever have to do with the war in Iraq? or DailyKos are still rolling for the night...


Isreal provoked a war by having the audacity to exist which then forced the Hezbollah to violate the sanctity of Israel's border, commit an act of war attacking Israel's soldiers, and then holding soldier hostage.

Man I wish Israel would use their mind control rays to just make Hezbollah convert instead of having them attack. I guess Israel gains so much by fighting Hezbollah and taking no territory that they use the mind control ways as they see fit.

I know - I should not feed the trolls: this speech was not about US foreign policy - it was about the relationship of faith and reason historically and the evolution from the enlightenment through modern times of science in this relationship. And finally what the Pope sees as a deficiency in the current status quo - which prohibits a true and honest discourse with Islam.



When I see the statement "the Talmud, the Jewish Holy Book which precedes the Old Testament," I stop reading because I automatically know that the person making that remark knows nothing about the subject they are discussing. My conclusion is then confirmed with by the act of selectively quoting from the Talmud. Are you even aware that there are two works of Talmud?

Regarding the Koran, I wonder if you know anything about the Islamic doctrine of abrogation? I suggest you read up on the subject yourself, and then read Sura 9, the Sura of the Sword, and ask yourself the following question: "I wonder how many of my Muslim friends accept the concept of abrogation?" You may be unpleasantly surprised.



Bill said "What am I missing?"

Simple: The ability to recognize the truth because you are blinded by hate.

Benedict continues to impress me.

Bill Wanke

PJP2 spoke of the evils of war. I feel as if I must give sight ot the blind here.
Dude: General Zinni is the biggest critic of this war, strongly favored containment-I will post his speech at Central Command. He is currently 1 of 6 Generals Demanding Rumsfelds Resignation. Schwartzkoff and Powell are also known as "Doves", as
military they know the horrors of war
try to turn off FOX news and educate yourself.

The conclusionary report says NO Weapons Of Mass Destruction. We have given up trying to find them because there are NONE. Saddam had remnants since 1991 and hadnt procured anything new. I have lots of info on this, must I do your homework for you? Be happy to.

Brnadan, Israel provoked a WAR by invading the southern border of Lebanon, engaging in a firefight. 2 Israeli soldiers were kidnapped and offered as a prisoner exchange. Thei invaded a country, used cluster bombs-illegal according to the Geneva convention in civilian areas-still have 800 live ones on the ground killing innocents-and have continually broken the cease fire. Is it possible that Hezbullah is more civil at war than Israel? Looks that way.
Chris, Ive glanced at the Koran and know the texts you queston. Infidels are made mention. My understanding is that that this doesnt apply to Christians, we are treated with respect in their texts. Mary is given the utmost respect. Jesus is regarded very highly as a prophet, in contrast to the Talmud who claims he is "In Hell" and a "Sorcerer".
Alan, I hate no one. I want the truth to be established and I want fairness and justice. For some reason lately, this doesnt apply to Arabs sadly and the Israelis are given a free pass. Read Christopher Hedges "Gaza Diary", he is a distinguished NY TImes photojournalist given many awards. He had a conversion in Palestine after witnessing the horrors committed in a genocide being pactived and a West that is blinded by spoon fed media talking head that would rather report on Paris Hiltons DUI, Britney Spears posing pregnant, P diddys illegimate Birth annoncement and the like. And so wonder wondering why Rome fell. It rotted from within, as we are doing. Dont believe me, just review the Talmud, preached by the Rabbis. Might explain why they treat some peole ie Christians and muslims alike so poorly and subhuman. JP2 denounced War, certainly this War, so far all I see implied is that. Bush, Bush, Bush, War, War, War. Back to Fox News.


Bill, you may want to add 1 of 6 (mostly retired) generals. You stated all generals favored containment. B.S.

Second, I don't watch Fox news, as I don't watch television. When I do, though, I watch Fox news perhaps 1 hour per 2 months.

I'll say to you, close up the NY Times, and USA today.

As far as educating myself, aside from my family, and jobs, educating myself is all I do. Perhaps you should take your own advice, friend.

Again, I'll ask, whatever did the post have to do with your problem with G.W. Bush?

You seem to be unreasonable, and off the hook. Getting unhinged about Bush and Iraq in an article which addresses relativism and Europe points to other problems.

Kevin in Dallas


"And (they) impute falsely, without knowledge, sons and daughters unto Him. Glorified be He and high exalted above (all) that they ascribe (unto Him). The Originator of the heavens and the Earth! How can He have a child when there is no consort for Him, when He created all things and is Aware of all things? Such is God, your Lord. There is no God save Him, the Creator of all things, so worship Him. And He taketh care of all things." 6:100-102

You ask ANY Muslim if Jesus was the Son of God and the answer will be "NO."


Bill Wanke:

I'm sorry to be uncharitable, but your are self-evidently an idiot. Your sensibility is bad enough -- but everyone is entitled to an opinion, even simplistic, wrong-headed ones.

But this is a Catholic blog, and I've had it with your defamation of the Blessed Virgin.

I'm deleting your offensive comments and banning you from commenting.

Jeremiah Reedy

Please put me on your mailing list.

Check out this Website by a Lebanese Christian.

Look on the left-hand side of the page and click on "Watch the Christian Persecution video in the Middle East".

Kevin in Dallas

Another great website to find out what the religious leaders of the Muslim world say to their own people is

One can find quotes to fit their arguments in any of the "Holy Books." I like to look and listen to the words and actions of the people today. The Koran may be full of peace-loving statements and ideas, but the only people who strap bombs on themselves or hijack planes in order to kill innocents in the name of God are Muslims.



This Pope never ceases to impress me, and I'm an agnostic. I wish I were smarter and better studied. This is truly food for thought and puts religion in a new light for me. What a great representative for a logical religion.


I read Bill Wanker's comments and was a bit perplexed. I had thought that the Talud really doesn't deal much with Jesus and found this very nice outline of common slurs on the Talumd.


From one of the Verses that Bill states is an indication of Jewish discrimation towards Christians (or some such nonsense). The Talumdic verse is quoted and then explained thusly:

What we see from here is that there was a man named Ben Stada who was considered to be a practicer of black magic. His mother was named Miriam and also called Stada. His father was named Pappos Ben Yehudah. Miriam (Stada) had an affair with Pandira from which Ben Stada was born.

Some historians claim that Ben Stada, also known as Ben Pandira, was Jesus. His mother's name was Miriam which is similar to Mary. Additionally, Miriam was called a women's hairdresser, "megadla nashaia" [for this translation, see R. Meir Halevi Abulafia, Yad Rama, Sanhedrin ad. loc.]. The phrase "Miriam megadla nashaia" sounds similar to Mary Magdalene, a well-known New Testament figure.

1. Mary Magdalene was not Jesus' mother. Neither was Mary a hairdresser.
2. Jesus' step-father was Joseph. Ben Stada's step-father was Pappos Ben Yehudah.
3. Pappos Ben Yehudah is a known figure from other places in talmudic literature. The Mechilta Beshalach (Vayehi ch. 6) has him discussing Torah with Rabbi Akiva and Talmud Berachot 61b has Pappos Ben Yehudah being captured and killed by Romans along with Rabbi Akiva. Rabbi Akiva lived during the second half of the first century and the first half of the second century. He died in the year 134. If Pappos Ben Yehudah was a contemporary of Rabbi Akiva's, he must have been born well after Jesus' death and certainly could not be his father."

I have to admit, I think it is a very exciting time to be Catholic.


So I guess the Christian Bishop of Jerusalem thought the Pals pissing in the church of the nativity showed respect?



Thank you for exiling Mr. Wanke.

He had fallen into a common modern fallacy, that of viewing all religions as equal. Because of this false view, the Pope cannot "critique" Islam ithout "denouncing" it. For Wanke this turned into a polemic of why the Pope didn't denounce those things which he (Wanke) finds objectionable.

He also fell into a second modern fallacy, that of seeing an equality between the end(s) of religion (the salvation of souls) and the end(s) of state craft (security, peace, prosperity, etc...)

Enough of the crackpot and on to BXVI!

What I find most IMPRESSIVE about the Holy Father's comments is his ability to defend the true Roman Catholic (and Thomistic) view of human free will by quoting a Byzantine (and Orthodox) emperor!

One of my favorite books on Thomistic philosophy is entitled "Nature, Knowledge and God" by Brother Benignus, FSC, published in 1947. He taught at Manhattan College when it was still controlled by the Christian Brothers and before it became "an independent catholic institution in the LaSallian tradition." (whatever the heck that means.).

Here is his synposis of the Thomistic definition of Free Will:

"St. Thomas (Aquinas) never subscribed to the view of free will which looks upon it as a spontaneous, uncaused, non-rational choice. Our will, for him, always follows our reason; we act freely only when we consciously determine ourselves to a choice based upon known reasons....To seek to free the will from reason is to seek to destroy the freedom of man."

Because Islam seeks to divorce the will of man from his reason, from his ability to say "yes" or "no," we can rightly say that Islam seeks to destroy the freedom of man (in it's true sense - as conceived in the Judeo-Christian and Greek/Roman worlds for the last 2000+ years.

I hope the Holy Father continues to be such a beacon of truth.



I wished this challenge will not be wasted on the Moslem leadership. I hope the Moslem elite will provide answers that will help the world appreciate why the situation is the way it is today, so that clarity can lead to win-win solutions, if there is such a thing.


From a conservative Baptist in the US:
Great speech. If the RCC had had popes throughout history like the last two it's had, we'd probably all still be RC. :-) It nicely contrasts the fullness of rational Christianity with the emptiness and irrationality of both European materialism and Islam.
But, without for a moment giving ground to the Enemy on the reasonableness of our Faith, let us not forget 1 Corinthians 1:17-23 (quoted below). In case your NT knowledge is a bit rusty, I remind you that the Apostle Paul is the writer. He is continuing from earlier statements, where he is condemning factionalism based on personality "cults." He expresses relief that he did not personally baptize many of them, so they couldn't claim to be "of Paul." He continues as follows:

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]: but God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: that no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: that, according as it is written, "He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."

Michael Psar

The Pope was only revealing certain truths that have otherwise been forgotten becasue of Muslim propoganda. We must understand that at the time of Manuel 11 the Ottomans killed The majority of Orthodox Christians, with the same mentality as excersised today by extremest groups such as Alcaeda. Its funny when someone mentions a truth how rapidly the other (Muslim world) reacts. This ofcourse only demonstrates the proof that these events by such people did take place and continue to exist. Lets not forget the Armenian and Asia Minor Genocide by the Ottoman Turks in the first part of the 20th century which claimed the lives of nearly 1.6 million people. Lets not forget the myriad attempts by the Ottoman Turks to overtake Greece and Serbia and other Countries by force. Lets also not forget Turkey's inhumane illegal occupation of Cyprus. I can't see why Muslims world wide cannot see the Pope's point. He said nothing personal and simply quoted an emperor of 14th century who kingdom was deteriating due to violent molestation and murder on the Ottoman Turks behalf. This treatment of the Orthodox Christian East led to 400 years of inhumane Occupation by the Ottomans. Unfortunately it appears that the Muslim Christian Situation is a bit like the German - Jewish Holocaust. Just as we "can't mention the war in Germany" so also we can't mention the wrongdoings of SOME Muslims who have killed so many millions of people, especially those of Christian Background. I emphasise the word SOME above because just as not all German's should pay for one man's madness (Hitler) so also the Muslims should not pay for some peoples' extremism (Extremist Groups of today which include a very muslim Country ending in a Y.) Therefore i do not believe the Pope was branding all Muslims as those who institute their beliefs with violence but he is certaintly alluding to those extremist groups that do in order to show how wrong they are because they are not acting with reason.

This is all coming from An Orthodox Christian'S point of view, who can see past the catholic crusade mistermeaners against Greece becuase the Catholics have apologised (John Paul IV apologised to The Archbishop of Greece), but who cannot accept the treatment dished out by SOME Muslims who will never say sorry to the Christian East because unfortunately their "integrity" and way of thinking does not allow for any apology.

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