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Tuesday, September 26, 2006

Comments

Donald

Is it remotely possible for the Holy Father to wake up, see that the Church and it's leadership are in desparate need of reform? If this were corporate America there would be a mass "restructuring" to restore order...the laity's voice is being heard peripherally, but, these Cardinals, Archbishops, Bishops, like Mahoney, Milingo and Tod, are being allowed to destroy Christ's church with their actions and teachings...pray Brethren...it's time for ACTION!!!!

Mark

Donald is absolutely right. The Vatican needs to discipline these Cardinals and Bishops. They should be removed like the moneychangers from the Temple. A commission of officials from the Vatican should form a network liaison with the laity. They will inform them of the faithful priests who obey the teachings and serve Christ, not themselves and their homosexual agendas.

Zarba

He needs to be secularized immediately.

A Simple Sinner

This story is most noteworty for being just plain odd.

As odd as it is, we need to remember there are something ike 4000+ bishops in full communion with the Pope of Rome... And this happens how often?

With all the dissident groups inside and out of the Cahtolic Church, all the retired folks, all the temptations, this really happens very little. It is newsworth especially for being so atypical of the behavior of most Catholic Bishops.

There have ALWAYS been a few renegades out there who have done this sort of nonsense. That is how we have groups like the Polish National Catholic Church, the SSPX, the Apostolic Catholic Church of Brazil, and the like...

Donald

Simple Sinner,

I hope that isn't your rationalizing a deeper consequence...the issue is, these "monarchies" that the Bishops feel compelled to create for themselves...strangely, a Bishop marrying a moonie is a microcosm of the "freedoms" Rome has turned a "blind eye" to...your description of the "oddities" of Milingo is the worst case scenario (so to speak) of the deeper seeded issues in the Church's make up of these "decentralized" fifedoms, created, therefore, seemingly, condoned by Rome...Again, pray for a conversion of heart and for the Holy Father to light a fire under these guys! And, while we're at it...Father Tran, if you read this, let's change up the message in your weekly homily from ..."once upon a time in Viet Nam (or China, etc.) a prince (or the like) ...and therefore, we must support the oppressed, the down troddened, the poor...to provide equality, justice, not support special interest groups...yaddy-yaddy..." Guess what Father Tran, you are the master of the obvious with no depth of spiritual leadership!! Nice to see what the liberal seminaries are putting out!

A Simple Sinner

At first I thought this was about as noteworthy as the ex-Governor of Ohio's ex-wife Dagmar Braun Celeste claiming to have been ordained a priest on a river boat between German and Austria

Than I noted who one of the "consecratees" is: our old buddy George Stallings.

Remeber him?

For those of you who do not remember Mr. Stallings, he left the Cahtolic Church (as a priest) to found his own congregation in Wash. DC back in 1989: The Imani Temple. Where he sought his original "consecration" to the episcopate I am not sure. For all I know he just proclaimed himself an archbishop. Why not a "patriarch" a la Randolph Adler of the CEC (Charismatic Episcopal Church)
I do not know. I guess he is a little bit humble.

In a recent interview Stallings granted: 'In the church coat room where the interview took place, she hugged Stallings. She kissed him. She made him blush. She took him by the hands and gazed into his eyes. Stallings, meanwhile, told Harris: "Jesus was an Asiatic Jew with black blood flowing through his veins.
Look at me, a man of African descent about to marry a woman of Asian descent. We are about to have some new Jesuses."'

Folks interested in reading about how Stallings KILLED a four-year-old little girl through baptism can go here.

Or read about his fabulous new Capital Hill property:

According to the Post account, the dedication service mixed Catholic liturgy and African dancing and chanting--punctuated by Stallings dancing on the altar and with congregants in the aisles. Present at the dedication and offering support for Stallings were representatives of the Louis Farrakhan-led Nation of Islam and the Inner Light Unity Fellowship, a predominantly gay congregation. Washington Mayor Sharon Pratt Kelly called Stallings "our own black Moses," the Post said.

Ex-Abp. Millango, way to go. You are up and running with a rather grand start there.

carolg

I can't believe JP2 let this man back in his position after getting hitched in a "Moonie" wedding! What a disgrace! He should have been told to live out the rest of his life in (quiet) penance somewhere.

I always wondered how crazy a box of frogs was; now I know.

A Simple Sinner

Donald,

That is not me rationalizing anything. That is me saying out of 4,000+ Catholic bishops world wide, there are bound to be a few screws loose somewhere.

I can't think of an analogous institution as Universal as the Catholic Church that would have FEWER problems of that sort. He is an odd ball, but you don't see 1 in ten, 1 in 100 or even 1 in 1000 going nutso like that.

ex-Abp. Milingo is a nutso (I belive that is the technical term) in league with the moonies and has hooked up with some other nutsos. To point to him as being typically problematic of today's episcopate... well there are better examples of "Bishops Gone Wild" more in line with the normal brand of episcopal lunacy that most of us deal with daily.

I think it is telling just how abnormal this sort of behavior is in the Church. I mean the Anglican communion annually sees any number of splits and schism with nay number of heir leaders consecrating new leaders or shifting allegiences.

The Eastern Orthodox, while more stable than the Anglican Communion in this department, has seen no fewere than two dozen breaks among the national churches... Not as common, but it still happens.

Now Catholic bishops pulling this sort of slop? Makes sense that it would be newsworthy. Especially something this odd.

Paul

To "A Simple Sinner"...

Correction...the proper technical term is "Nutburger". Please use this term when addressing His Grace Milingo in the future.

Christine

Thank God he is finally gone!

Mark

Simple Sinner, there still is a very large majority of lame, dissenting bishops in the U.S. The handful of obedient ones are voices in the wilderness.

There has been a steady erosion in society due to that lame majority of bishops putting a stranglehold on the teachings of the Catholic Church. I certainly take no comfort in pointing out the extreme case of this looney mooney as a comfort zone that the rest aren't so bad.

Guess what? They are and it is serious! Will they prevail in their destruction? Absolutely not. We have that promise. Meanwhile we can all do our part to defend and safegaurd the truths of our faith.

This trial will continue for some time.

Donald

Ditto to Mark...and eloquently articulated!! Nutbars like Milingo do not spring up...they are cultivated in a pitre dish of erosion...the cells of deceit continuing to materialize...until the norm, because a deceitful hierarchy, becomes blurred, and only cases such as Milingo stand out...please flock, ask and certainly PRAY for a metamorphis to take place in Christ's Church...because it is currently going the wrong way on a "one way" highway!!

c.a. Marks

Where in the world do you find these stories? Donald, I don't think our church is going the wrong way, it's the people IN it.

Kris

Well, the Church Herself CANT go the wrong way. But, yes the people in it certainly can. Who are those people led by--priest and Bishops. As far as the American Church is concerned, there is certainly a void that needs to be filled in regards to the Episcopate. Bishops who hold true to the faith, keep tabs on their priests, and crack down on presbyters that lead the souls in their charge astray are in the minority it seems. Malingo might represent a small number of Bishops who have created schism and the like, but the poor state of the Episcopate, at least in the U.S., should most certainly be a issue of concern for all Catholics--an issue that requires nothing short than begging the intervention of all the Saints and Angels.

Donald

Kris, you are correct and I stand corrected...the Church cannot go the wrong way...my frustrations reference the leadership...thank you for your appropriate correction.

Dude

Folks, I am a bit baffled. Perhaps Ex-Bishop Milingo is a bit nutty. I confess, I knew nothing of him, until I read this post.

However, his oddness seems less strange to me than the moving of Cardinal Bernard Law, to Rome, even closer to the Pope.

Or the turning of the eyes with regard to the openly gay bishops and priests in total dissent of the teachings of the church. Or the nuttiness of Bishop T. Brown.

Our gay bishops continue, our nutty dissenters continue. Gays continue to flood the priesthood, and continue to molest boys, and setup more problems and humiliation for future generations.

I was at a wedding in Cape Cod in July where a newly ordained "priestess" performed a wedding. She was ordained by a bishop, along with 12 other women. http://www.romancatholicwomenpriests.org/ordinands.htm
and to all this, the bishop from our diocese (Archbishop Harry Flynn - as she is from Red Wing, MN) our Popes and church are silent.

Now a male priest marries a woman (albeit moonie, a quasi-Protestant cult) and it is time to act. WHOA! Now that's bad stuff! Auto-reaction/ex-comm from the Pope.

I am truly baffled.

P.S. When the wedding began, I was not aware Regina Nicolosi was one of the 12 ordained priestesses. By the way the ceremony went, after calling on our 'ancestors' and for us to bless this wedding etc., I thought it was a fusion of earth-druid-American indian new-ager stuff...which it was. Best blessings to my buddy.

A Simple Sinner

I was at a wedding in Cape Cod in July where a newly ordained "priestess" performed a wedding. She was ordained by a bishop, along with 12 other women. http://www.romancatholicwomenpriests.org/ordinands.htm
and to all this, the bishop from our diocese (Archbishop Harry Flynn - as she is from Red Wing, MN) our Popes and church are silent.

The Pope and the Bishops are smart to mostly be silent. It gives those folks more attention than they deserve.

The key diff between an ex-Vatican official who is likely mentally ill/brainwashed by a cult and those 12 women is this: Milango was Catholic. The "bishop" who ordained the 12 women was not. The "bishop" who ordained THAT "bishop" was not. The "bishop" who ordained him or her was not either....

Where did those bishops come from? Let's look!

A good deal of these Episcopi vagantes come from apostlic successions and episcopal consecrations taht are dubious at best. They stem from some REAL characters that were around about 100 years ago including a Frenchman named Joseph René Vilatte who had been consecrated by a breakaway Roman Catholic diocese in India under the protection of the Jacobite (Oriental Orthodox) Patriarch. Think "Western Rite Jacobite Uniate" or something.....

Joseph René Vilatte died in reconciled to the Catholic Church as a layman in a French monastery.

Others can be tied to Arnold Harris Mathew who was ordained in Utrecht by a presumably valid bishop of the the Utrecht Union of Old Catholics . Harris went a long merrily consecrating this that and the other fellow - married, single, divorced, etc to be priests, bishops and the like. (When he died he had been attending Church of England services and was buried as a lay Anglican.)

Those fellows went on to do the same and the same and the same. Today we can thank them for such institutions as the Independent Catholic Churches, Liberal Catholic Church , and the CatholicApostolic Church of Antioch Malabar Rite . The last one is rather a mouthful isn't it?

Well the last one is actually headed by the grand Most Reverend Meri Spruit, Archbishop Matriarch of the CatholicApostolic Church of Antioch Malabar Rite !

To boot there are a few renegade Orthodox bishops who consecrated thier own Episcopi vagantes

More than a few of them will go out “consecration hunting” and find bishops from Continuing Anglican Bodies just to try to re-affirm that somewhere along the line, seeking ordination from Independent Catholic Churches, Renegade Eastern Orthodox, Continuing Anglican Bodies etc. At one point he (or she!) may pull out a dozen charts to demonstrate that somewhere along the line, somehow, as if by magic, they are pretty sure they are valid in Rome’s eyes. After all, they have been ordained by dozens of bishops, one of them must have been valid!

(Of course how could you prove it? I mean if you or I went bat-poop crazy and wanted people to call us "Patriarch Simple Sinner" or "Grand Catholicos of the Americas and Iberian Peninsula Dude" we could sit down and type out that we had been consecrated by Bishop Bob, who had been consecrated my Patriarch Tom, who had been consecrated by Mar Luigi, who had been consecrated by Metropolitan Skip, who had been consecrated by Prince-Archbishop Trevor... "SEE, we have a paper to PROVE it!!")

(Seems to me that the single group that benefits the most from all of these Episcopi vagantes would be mail-order vestment catalogs. Many of them have outfits that out-do the Pope of Rome or the Archbishop of Caneterbury or the Patriarch of Constantinople on their best days! My favorites are the ones that mix & match and combine really obscure, esoteric Greek and Oriental and Latin vestments. a la these folks or Mar Enoch One thing I can say about these folks, unlike most American Roman Catholic bishops, they at least love to dress the part!)

Most of these bishops have no congregations per se.. They ordain a few priests and deacons - married, unmarried, male, female, lesbian couples, whatever... maybe a dog or two. And in short order THOSE folks end being consecrated bishops and then ordain their own Episcopi vagantes.

These folks often engage in intrigue, have schisms, and have churches that are in thier garages, on the web, or simply on stationary. They take turns consecrating and reconsecrating and excommunicating and anathemizing each other. They adopt grand titles like Patriarch, Matriarch, Archbishop, Mar, Catholicos, etc... and have Churches with names like CatholicApostolic Church of Antioch Malabar Rite or "Ancient Orthodox Catholic Autocephalous Church of North America". Many of them grant titles under odd sounding "Military orders" such as:

The Noble Russian Orthodox Order of St. John of Jerusalem Hospitallar,. AKA - Russian Orthodox Knights of Malta with

His Eminence The Patriarch, Grand Duke, Dr., Chief Alexander Swift Eagle Justice .D., Ph.D., J.D. -Theologian, Academician Native Metropolitan/Archbishop founder of Keepers of Creation Church to Serve the Native American Community in the entire Western Hemisphere
.

(This guy issues his own passports and wears (alternately) Latin Rite or Greek Style Episcopal vestments. I cannot say if he alternates based on a liturgical calendar or if he simply wears whatever is clean while the other sets are at the dry cleaners.)

Oh I could go on and on and on and on. Why bother? If you are interested in finding out about these types just google "Independtant Catholic" "Independant Orthodox" "Western Rite Orthodox" “Celtic Orthodox” “British Orthodox” “British Catholic” “Native American Catholic” or dozens of other odd monikers and descriptions.

IN short, why doesn’t the Pope and the bishop speak out against these ordinations?

1) They are not Catholics
2) They are almost universally flakes calling themselves bishops who do not deserve the recognition that being talked about by Rome would afford them
3) A religious order or monastery dedicated ONLY to researching these oddballs full-time 24/7 would be needed to keep up with all these folks ordaining everything and each other everywhere.

Now here is a question for you Dude: Why did you even bother to stick around and participate even as a witness for this priestess-led nuptual? Even (especially) if the bride or the groom were close friends? It may have been better to quietly get up and instead of offering tacit approval to such tom foolery, head to your local Olive Garden for all you can eat pasta and salad for $7.95!


- Lay Non-Patriarch of the Midwest & Lake Erie, non-Pope of Ohio, not-a-Grand Master of the Holy Order the Knights of St. Phanoudios of Greece (Old Rite, Akron Ohio Chapter) Simple Sinner in communion with the Pope of Rome Who had too-much coffee (simple, not the Pope, he may not have had any coffee)

Dude

SS: Easier said than done. Perhaps one of my closest friends - whom has always been a hardcore lib. We have communicated little in the past 1.5 years. I thought they were doing a justice of the peace thing. Out at a house on the cape, 50 people, I'm up front taking photos. I was totally unaware she was an "ordained priestess." As the "blessing" part of the ceremony began to unfold, I began to realize it was not a justice of the peace. It was much too new-agey to be so. You don't just huff out of a situation like this. Especially when the nearest town is 5 miles away. He knows what I think, and my making a scene would do no good. In short, it was not until reading an article 5 weeks later, did I realize she was an "ordained priestess."

Perhaps you are correct, that they were "ordained" by some splinter group/breakaway bishop. Of course, they can also be lying. But in this particular instance, they claim to have been ordained by an validly and in good standing bishop, who will be revealed upon his death.

Either way, this was not the primary point of my post, and I believe if you re-read my original post, you'll see this.

My primary point was along the lines of this: With all of the other out of control bishops, who are much more out of it than a priest who wants to get married, why the sudden and immediate ex-communication? I personally can pick out 50 priests and bishops who are much more offensive to the faith than Milingo (from what little I know of him), and there is no stinking discipline for the other hardcore wingnuts!

I know you know of what I speak.

After stating my primary point, my primary question (from previous conversations over the past few weeks) still stands properly and thoroughly unanswered: What is the huge problem with married priests?

Unacceptable answers are:
1) Just because
2) You cannot be a priest and a family man, and be effective at either or both
3) The Orthodox have low numbers as well
4) Or a rhetorical question/reply, assuming my faith is weak (some people do this when my challenge to their logic persists beyond their frequently weak answers)

Personally, I like "Grand Catholicos of the Americas and Iberian Peninsula Dude" or perhaps, just "Church of Dude."

Donald

Dude:

I'm no theolgical scholar, but, I believe the answer is due to a vow to serve God and his church and be wed only to the true Church...if I'm wrong, then, I'm sure I'll be corrected by someone more in tune than I am!! I would love a traditional priest's position to be duly noted...

A Simple Sinner

Dude!

See, this is why I just plain like you. You get it. I get it. It makes me chuckle too.

Now as far as being in an awkward situation with the friend at the wedding service, I completely understand. There are times when making a stand on a thing like that now, could preclude being heard at all later. I know that some folks on here would have demanded you get up make a scene. But sometimes we have to use judgment and discretion now, so as to actually be heard later.

It is funny because I have yet to meet a “priestess” or priestess supporter who acts anywhere NEAR what an orthodox priest would. Not content to just have women become ordained, have you noticed that priestess-agitation ALWAYS seems to be part of a larger rather protestant agenda?

When you are I talk a bit about the merits or demerits of admitting married men to the priesthood, it is generally NOT in anyway related to the “Call To Action” “We Are Church” or “FutureChurch” crowd. I acknowledge my own experience with married Greek Catholic priests and 2 Latin convert (pastoral provision) priests, you are just asking questions about a discipline. I think anyone who listens to us sees that in talking about this discipline we have no grand designs to make the Catholic Church something it is not.

As far as the original post that I replied to, I apologize, but did not read or see any reference in your post or your link to what you now tell me is "But in this particular instance, they claim to have been ordained by an validly and in good standing bishop, who will be revealed upon his death." I figured this was the same group that the ex-wife of my state's ex-governor was ordained with...

(figure it out youself, I am too embarassed for my state to say which one and who - I used to think it was only coastal states that dealt with such madness!)

At any rate, [non]Grand Catholicos of the Americas and Iberian Peninsula Dude, if it **IS** the case that some loon of a bishop out of the 250/300 in America did that, it is likely better that Rome and her faithful sons, the local bishops, do NOT draw attention to this fanciful claim.

If it is true, that is both embarassing and scandalous. If it is false, that is a lot of good free press for these yahoos.

Think about a few years ago (about 10) when Bishop Bruskewitz of Linconln issued a simple statement that the faitful in his diocese could not support Planned [B]arrenhood, the Masons, Call To Action, Catholics for a Free Choice. Well that was a situation where he was right, the message was clear, and about HALF the media still got the issues wildly wrong and deamonized the good Bishop. But at least in that circumstance he was plainly right and all issues were out in the open!

(Incidentally I have met Bishop Bruskewitz on two occasions and he is a bishop's bishop and a man's ma!. Two dozen like him in the US would clean the clock out of AmChurch! Lord send us more like him!)

Now picture the useless media attention to "Roman Catholic Archbishops Condemns Something That Might Have Happened" why give these bozos (just as likely to be frauds) ANY free press?

Heck, I got a handful of foster-dogs from the local shelter. (The little bit of volunteer work I have time for!) I love em to pieces, and I honor our bishops, but 100 senile old bishops could all ordain my dogs bishops and they would still just be my dogs!

The Bible was right - there is nothing new under the sun.

([Apologies to Agent 86, Max Smart) "Ahh, the old claim to have valid Catholic bishops ordaining women trick! Its been done.
On a separate note, I read on the website you offered the following:

Over sixty women are currently enrolled worldwide in the preparation program of R.C. Womenpriests

I bet that is a REALLY rigorous program of study, don’t you?

Now as far as why not change the apostolic tradition of celibate priesthood… Well you know where I stand on that one. Far from believing it to be a “concession to a very few Uniate souls” as some might have said years ago, I think there is room for it in the Universal Church.

I can appreciate that you are an orthodox Catholic questioning a discipline that could be changed. I also will not tell you “1) Just because 2) You cannot be a priest and a family man, and be effective at either or both 3) The Orthodoxhave low numbers as well 4) Or a rhetorical question/reply, assuming my faith is weak (some people do this when my challenge to their logic persists beyond their frequently weak answers)”

I run pretty lukewarm on this issue. I see celibacy as a valid Latin practice that has worked for ages and in most places till we get to the West today. I actually still think it works, but it depends on having a community of faithful to become priests. I also see it working well and having advantadges among Eastern Catholics, the Eastern Orthodox and the Anglican Communion – (As well as anything works in TAC!)

I am just not sure there is a good argument being made for the need to change, to go against the long standing traditions, to change the practice because of what we are dealing with here.

I also don’t know that it would have a long-term effect on vocation numbers. An initial surge may or may not be expected… After that I can’t help but wonder if it would remain the same situation we have now. Orthodox single men are being turned away or persecuted out of seminaries. Why wouldn’t the same be the case with married men? In diocese and orders where the bishops and superiors openly espouse orthodoxy and demand the same, some, a la the Diocese of Lincoln & Arlington.

I guess it is this simple: Until we fix the things that are wrong with the current system, why would we want to bother changing the parameters of the old system? There is an old saying, if it ain’t broke don’t fix it. I say if it IS broke fix what is broken.

 Mark

How do these priestesses want to be addressed? Bless me mother for I have sinned, I didn't study my Catholic Catechism so now my life is in ruin? Do they expect to be called Father? Do they expect to be called priestess? Besides giving them the title of "dazed and confused", what do people call them? This
title should be interesting in assisting with the proper diagnosis. Calling them mother will indicate a desire to fulfill the motherimg that using contraception didn't allow. Calling them sister will be a confusing gesture with other religious nuns, but indicate a subliminal guilt of it really being undeserved, so I'll settle for sister. Calling them father indicates a desire to display feminist anger towards men who have disappointed or abandoned them. It is a delusional shot at "I don't like how you did it, so I'll be the man and show you how it's done". Wanting to be called priestess indicates a a fascination with pagan rituals held in the inner jungles of the Amazon and indicates a desire to escape housework and dusting. The title they want, will explain volumes!!!!

Some Day

Servants of the Servants of Satan

Ed

I am amazed, as a Roman Catholic, how completely unchristian and sel-righteous you seem. All done in the name of Orthodoxy. Whatever happened to Christ-like love, understanding and forgivenenss? You make fun of poor, sick Milingo and call him names. SHame on you. You should be praying for him. I doubt I will visit this blog again. I feel I need to go to confession just from reading it. God bless you all.

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