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Wednesday, November 08, 2006

Comments

Nate Wildermuth

Carol, thanks for responding. I made some assumptions about the whole event, assumptions which have turned out to be wrong. I assumed that this was some sort of pre-conceived ambush of the bishop, done in intentional defiance of his non-kneeling policies. I apologize for being harsh, ignorant, and downright furious about something that never happened.

I suppose my reaction may have similar roots in the bishop's reaction. There seems to be strong, personal, vicious, and satanic attacks going on against our bishops. Forces are at work in this world to bring down our Church, and they are doing it by bringing down our bishops and their priests.

He probably saw you kneeling, Carol, and thought you were part of a group of people who are determined to bring him down, no matter how many people it might scandalize.

I applaud the efforts that are being made to notify the vatican of what is going on in OC. But sometimes it is better to suffer injustice than it is to strike at the heart of our church - our bishops. Suffering injustice is very different than committing injustice. If the bishop is requiring people to do something that the CHRUCH teaches is wrong, then yeah - expose it, spread it, and have the man thrown out.

But as far as it relates to standing/kneeling, I doubt he is requiring people to do things that violate Church teachings.

As far as the sexuality issues go, I haven't looked at them. But I doubt he is requiring any OC parishoner to engage in homosexual acts.

Has the bishop actually required (or even politely asked) that any of his flock do something that violates Church teachings?

Again, Carol, I apologize for being ignorant and crazy-hopping-mad about something that never happened. I'm glad you knelt, but hope you aren't offended by the bishop's actions. It isn't wrong for you to stand, though it may wrong of him to scold you for doing something right - kneeling.

Carol, you've got to realize that standing and kneeling hardly matters compared to your personal disposition to the grace of Jesus in the Eucharist. You can kneel all you want, but if you aren't open to radical conversion, you may as well spit Jesus out. I know things are bad, but you have to admit that you are bitter, and have no sympathy for the errors made by the only man through whom your sacraments come from, your bishop. There are a million things that could be better,and will be,buti f we say that we can do what we want because its more pious, we are no better than the liberals. I know they are totally denying the sacred liturgy by their actions, but it is still the liturgy. Like I said, things are very bad, and at times it seems like too much. Let us then remember the words of St. Jerome- I woke up one day and the whole world was Arian.

King David was God's anointed, and look at the horrid crime he committed. In the whole history of revelation, God's leaders are constantly blowing it! No matter what time or place, the chosen leaders will screw up big time; I'm not saying its right, but it does happen. And when it does, we must remember that JESUS is our Savior first, and no one can or ever will match up to Him, and we must remember that no matter how bad things get, the Church Herself will never fall, or lead Her Children to Hell.

Fernando

Anonimous,

There is a difference between the norm and the law. Standing to receive Holy Communion is the norm at the Diocese of Orange, but not the law of the Church. We do not think we know better than the Church, we are actually quoting what the Church has already expressed on the matter. For the comment about God judging these men for their actions, I agree, but I would add that God will also judge us for standing on the sidelines without saying or doing nothing when would could have done so. Remember there is such as thing as sin of omission.

I believe I am in a very good position to speak about this matter given my personal experience. Years ago I worked under the direction of this particular Bishop. I worked at the diocesan offices of this diocese. While working there I became aware that a particular priest was fond of viewing child pornography on the Internet. I brought this issue to the secretary of the Bishop at that time, Father Michael McKiernan. He told me that they were going to deal with the matter. Months latter I was told by Father Michael that the Diocese had notified the police, an investigation was conducted, but that the DA decided not to press charges. On the mean time Father Michael told me that the Diocese had decided to send this particular priest to counseling since he had admitted to viewing child porn. At this point I decided that I had done enough on my part regarding this matter, but as time went by I ponder about the possibilities. This was happening at the height of the sex abuse scandals and cases were being discussed in which many of the perpetrators had been sent to counseling without any positive results. That is when I reconsidered my position on the matter and I contacted Father Michael again to ask him if counseling was going to be the final remedy for the behavior of this priest. He told me that the pastor at the parish where this priest was would keep an eye on him and would make sure that he would not have access to children. I told Father Michael that I believed this was not enough. I told him that in my opinion, given the seriousness of the matter this priest should have been removed from a position in which he had access to children, that he could be at an administrative position within the diocesan offices, but not at a parish were he would have access to children. My recommendations felts on deft hears. I was always tempted to forget about the whole thing, but I would always think about the possibilities. What if this priest actually carries out one of his fantasies? I was certain that he would be held responsible for his actions during Judgment Day, but I was also certain that I would also be held responsible for not doing enough when I knew there was more I could do. Wouldn’t you agree that, God forbid, there was an actual victim in the future I would have to carry the burden on my shoulders that I was partially responsible for the existence of this particular victim? I choose to act, I went public with the story and the Diocese was forced to remove this priest from active ministry. I can now stand by the bed of my children as they sleep, look at their innocence and know that when I had the chance to contribute to make a better Church for them, a safer world, I did my part.

We have the same deal going on right now. We can stand on the sidelines and pretend that nothing is happening or that we cannot make a difference on the matter. But this is also our Church, this Church is a gift that was given to us during our baptism and we are equally responsible for its safekeeping.

Mona Alona

Fernando,

That was beautifully said.

Loyolalaw98

So anonymous is a seminarian.

I infer this from where he said:

"Our seminarys are transforming across America, and if we hold out, we will see a new face of the domestic Church of America within twenty years, and that is a promise from someone who knows, a seminarian."

I would respectfully disagree.

While there may be a cadre of orthodox seminarians who are making it through a system which Mike correctly identifies as "creating a priest shortage," I do not think that anyone - orthodox or not - can make it through these bastions of neo-modernism without being effected. Even the most diligently clean mechanic will always have a little oil under his fingernails.

The Archdiocese of Los Angeles, and the Diocese of Orange, have as there primary seminary St. John's in Camarillo. If one would seek the "incubator" of the liturgical abuses that we see in our parishes - look to St. John's. Do seminarians at St. John's kneel during ANY part of the mass? If they do, what disciplinary actions are taken against them?

Regrettably, I think that many covert orthodox seminarians are putting too much stock in the TONE that BXVI is setting. The CAREERIST priests that are running places like St. John's will mouth approval of the Pope, but their actions speak differently, specifically in what they teach.

It was for this reason I was most horrified by the elevation of George Niederauer to be Archbishop of San Francisco. Any rational person who reviewed what was taught at St. John's while he was Rector at the theologate would view his public "quasi-adherence" to the Magisterium as the lip service needed to move up the ladder.

Michael  Teissere

Nate , My wife and I were told by Bishop Tod Brown of The Diocese of Orange, to sign a secret oath. When we did sign it, it was said, we promised to keep secret, evil acts, homosexual kind! You could read our story on The Cafeteria is Closed blog back in October 2006 posts! it is called The Fr. Rod Stephens saga.. So I could say ,yes Bishop Brown does at least in our case tells us to go against The Church, but he Bishop Brown does it by tricking you! So my conclusion is that Bishop Brown is tricking the laity in the Diocese, by down playing the mass and out right forbidding devotion to Jesus Christ. Bishop Brown is allowing Fr. Bailey to continue to blasphem our Lord by these halloween masses. I know Bishop Brown doesn't care a hoot about any of this, because he didn't care if my cousin Fr.Rod Stephens was living a open homosexual lifestyle and teaching heretical teachings to members of my family and to the laity in the diocese of Orange. OH! No! instead Bishop Brown allows my cousin Fr. Rod to work in the diocese for $300.00 an hour to wreck Catholic Churches! But heh! he is not paying$$$ for it, the laity in the Diocese of Orange are!! I told Bishop Brown , that he responsible for my cousin Fr. Rod Stephens, because he is his superior. Bishop told my wife and I that he is not responsible for priests after they clock out after 5pm . I told him, yes he is, in fact your Excellency, you are responsible for all the souls in your diocese. Bishop Brown said he wasn't responsible for the souls in the diocese just his own soul. My wife and I were shocked! I told him No! you're responsible for all the souls. He then was quite and then change the subject. You could read about our story on the Cafeteria Is Closed . Some things were edited out in The Cafeteria is Closed( my wife sent Gerald Augustinus our story) like the part I refer above, but for the most part it is all there! We have documentation of our meetings with Bishop Brown, letters from our attorney to Bishop Brown and letters from Bishop Brown to our attorney. We have a letter from the Congregation of The Clergy at The Vatican. My wife asked for a copy of the secret oath, but Fr. Douglas Cook the Bishops cannon lawyer said it is in secret archive! Yeah! the secret archive being the Bishops trash can! And by the way , the secret oath we signed was sribbled on a yellow piece of note pad paper. Oh i can't forget to tell you that my cousin Fr.Rod Stephens works part time at a "catholic woman priestess" church in San Diego and is still allowed By Bishop Tod Brown to wreck churches in the Diocese of Orange. No Nate! I will not be decevied by Bishop Tod Brown! I don't trust him at all! I love Jesus Christ and His Church! Yes, the gates of hell will not prevail against it!, but the Church is not promised to survive in the Diocese of Orange!

This is my last post ever as you people are blinded by what you see subjectively that you won't even listen to reason.

I CONSIDER THE HATRED AND BITTERNESS THAT PUSLATES FROM THIS WEBSITE JUST AS HARMFUL TO THE CHURCH AS THOSE YOU ARE ATTEMPTING TO FIHGT!

YOU PEOPLE MAKE ME SICK!

Nate Wildermuth

Michael, thanks for sharing your experiences with the bishop.

I think it's up to each of us to obey our conscience before we follow an immoral command of a possibly immoral bishop.

Fernando, in the case of child pornography vs. kneeling/standing, I think we're comparing two very different issues. The difference between allowing a priest to molest children and requiring people to stand during communion is a pretty big difference. There is nothing wrong with standing for communion.

But maybe I am wrong. Do people here believe that it is wrong to receive Christ standing? If so, why? I'm not criticizing Carol - I believe she was innocently caught up in a battle between the bishop and traditionalists.

Nate Wildermuth

Someone said,"I CONSIDER THE HATRED AND BITTERNESS THAT PUSLATES FROM THIS WEBSITE JUST AS HARMFUL TO THE CHURCH AS THOSE YOU ARE ATTEMPTING TO FIHGT!"

Although this certain event has become more understandable to me, I have to say that the overall tone of most of the posts I have seen in this blog (and many of the comments), is one of a very divisive stance towards not just some of the bishops, but almost all of them.

It might be helpful to simply clarify for people whether this blog and those who comment are part of the groups that reject Vatican II.

Do you guys reject Vatican II?

Little Susy

Dear God,

All I want for Christmas this year is a new holy bishop.

Love,

Susy

Beeline

This is my last post ever as you people are blinded by what you see subjectively that you won't even listen to reason.

I CONSIDER THE HATRED AND BITTERNESS THAT PUSLATES FROM THIS WEBSITE JUST AS HARMFUL TO THE CHURCH AS THOSE YOU ARE ATTEMPTING TO FIHGT!

YOU PEOPLE MAKE ME SICK!

//***************************************

I couldnt have said it better myself.
I attend the infamous St Mary's in Huntington Beach.

I read the 'Mother Angelica' book when it first came out a while back , and researched about her confrontation with Cardinal Mahoney.

Mother Angelica on TV,some 10 years ago or so, in criticizing something that Cardinal Mahoney wrote
said that if she lived in Mahoney's archdiocese she wouldnt obey him.
Well she was mad and a firestorm erupted over that 'disobedience'statment, and a week later or so
she recanted and apologized and in the same breath criticized further the letter that Mahoney wrote that expressed the Eucharist more as a Communal Meeting than anything else.

Moral of the story: you can critcize
where cricism is warranted,
but you cant' disobey in licit manners.
The avg. Catholic has only his obedience in Mass as it relates to his Bishop. Outside of that, normal Catholics never intersect with the Bishop.

My point?
Restore the Sacred at St. Mary's is founded upon a group of people who purposely disobeyed their Bishop in licit manners and carried that protest into the Mass over licit Novus Ordo Mass features that they didnt like. Like most other Catholic dissident groups it shares a questionable leadership and membership base and the RadTrad label is the best I can apply.


Moreover, I wonder why the weekly bulletin of 'Restore the Sacred' is not posted on the internet anywhere. I think I know the answer. Although it serves its purpose in mobilizing their base as a handout, it is in essence a bizarre, scandalous rag not capable of holding up to scrutiny, logic or philosophy. 'Restore the Sacred' would be further marginalized and rightfully so if people read what they wrote.

If any site would be a candidate for posting
'Restore the Sacred' handouts it would be this one as this site's apparent mission seems to revolve around 'Restore the Sacred' and Bishop Brown. Look through the archives and notice how many cartoons are contrived and posted exclusively here. On average, twice a week a new cartoon depicting Bishop Brown and recycled story is presented here. This is the most salacious and repetive site concerning Orange County California and Bishop Brown, yet they dont post the 'Restore the Sacred' bulletins. 'Restore the Sacred' stated purpose is to bring to light and embarrass the Bishop, it seems they are limited in scope in that purpose.

Any reason for not posting these bulletins is a failure and if you do start you should start with the back issues. But you wont, because you havent yet and it wouldnt be smart or advantageous to their movement!
These are truly ,embarrassing to the movement,rags!

Suffering in O.C.

Beeline,

I'm not a parisioner of St. Mary's but I do live in this diocese. I'm glad this and other websites like it are around otherwise how would we know when things are happening in our diocesan churches that shouldn't be happening or that are bishop or priests are doing what they are supposed to be doing or not doing and advocating things they shouldn't be. I'm a convert and I get more information from this website of what's right and what's wrong than I ever got in my Orange diocese RCIA classes.

I'm sorry to say this but I think it's people like you that have helped the church get and stay in the mess it's in.

Prayers without action seems to be your motto.

One thing I never hear in the Catholic church but I heard growing up was "God helps those who help themselves".

Imagine if the prolife movement felt this way and only prayed but never did the life chain, never wrote articles or sent out emails and educated people.

Fernando

Nate,

Just because I am fed up with this particular bishop it does not mean that I reject Vatican II. Those who reject Vatican II at the Diocese of Orange are long gone. They are with the independent church called Our Lady Help of Christians in Garden Grove. This is a church that does not belong to a diocese, whose priest operates as his own bishop and pope. There is a big difference between hate and frustration. If I was to hate the bishop I would pray for his death and eternal damnation, I would wish for him horrible things. But because he is my bishop I want for him to get his act together. Saint Augustine said that, "The road to Hell is paved with the sculls of bishops." I just want for my bishop's scull not to be one that part of the road to hell. His actions carry so much weight. The salvation of many souls depends on whether or not he shepherds his flock properly. Are we so naive to believe that Saint Catherine hated Pope Gregory XI when she reprimanded him for not living in Rome? Are we to believe that Saint Bruno, Saint Hugh of Grenoble and Saint Godfrey of Amiens hated Pope Paschal II when they warned him that unless he would revoke his agreement with Henry V, Emperor of Germany they would withdraw their allegiance from him? The actions of the above mentioned saints are part of the history of the Church. Their actions prove that obedience is not absolute and they prove that disobedience is not a sign of hate towards our shepherds when they are giving us orders to act against the general laws of the universal Church. By the way, let us travel back on time and play pretend. We are contemporaries of Saint Atahnasius the Great, the Arian heresy is the order of the day, even the Holy Father, Pope Liberious is contemplating falling into heresy. Should be follow his lead and believe the Arian heresy or should be follow the lead of Saint Atahansius?

Also Nate, which one of us said or even hinted to anything closed to believing that standing to receive Holy Communion is wrong? How is it that you came to that conclusion based on our comments? We are only saying that we have a right which has been secured by the Holy See. I have presented to you the documentation and it seems to me that you are ignoring it. If you choose to stand that is your choice, none of us has said anything against it. How did you come to that conclusion? You are reading more than you should from our comments.

Also, I never compared child pornography with kneeling. I only brought the issue into the table because this it a reflection of the fact that we are equally responsible for the state of the Church and that we would also be held accountable for the consequences of our actions and lack thereof.

Once again I ask you not to put words into the sentences that I write and accuse me of saying and doing things that I did not.

Fernando

Beeline, (Algarme) you should have taken karate classes for the brain. You need them very much.

By the way, from what I remember Mother Angelica never recanted, she apologized for having rebuked a Cardinal. Two extremely different things.

Fernando

Suffering in O.C.

I second your comments. I also live in this parish and I do not go to Saint Mary's, but I also suffer due to the state of affairs.

Beeline

So its not about what I said, its about me?
-----------------------------------------
...and you wont be the last to use this tactic!

Restore the Sacred is a group and as a group
it is open to criticism as is the Bishop. Period.

Unfortunately all of you take it all too personally when someone has something to say
about something you belong to. As I have stated before and as my previous post illustrates, criticism of the Bishop is not bad, but disobedience and a group founded on illicit disobedience, is something that my sensibilities tell me to stay away from.
For years I've wondered when someone was going to organize against Cardinal Mahoney.
Well you've done it against Bishop Brown, on one hand I want to applaud on another hand I find your roots to be more than suspect and against my responsibility of fidelity to the Church and my local Bishop in licit manners.
I do not applaud a group that is founded on purposeful disobedience and confrontation in licit matters.

Thats my view and because its my view it doesnt mean I want Bishop Brown dancing on all your graves or that I am pro-Brown. Actually I am anti-Brown and believe the truth should be written about and followed up the chain.

However, I am sure there will be plenty of you having your personal shots at me all the same. Your a feisty bunch and I dont particularly like posting here, but do speak up from time to time when I see others encountering the same treatment that I have received here.

You people take legitimate criticism of a group personally!

It seems you can dish it out(to the Bishop), but 'through the group' --you cant take it!

Michael  Teissere

My wife and I don't reject Vatican II. We love The Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI and were excited that he is our new Holy Father! We watch EWTN read Catholic World Report (Fr. Joseph Fessio's magazine). We also love my cousin Fr. Rod Stephens and Bishop Tod Brown and pray they come back to The Church Teachings and if they don't they need to be removed. Our meetings with Bishop Tod Brown have proven to my wife and I that Bishop Brown is not acting in a way that a Roman Catholic Bishop should! We respect the office of Bishop, that is why we went to him. But we don't trust him! Bishop Tod Brown has totally scandalized us!!! And I agree with the comment above, there are laity who have kept this corruption in power. You are part of the spiritual abuse of many people. I won't get into the sex abuse scandals that speaks for itself. My family my father and mother are completely lost, along with my brothers and sisters, because of the false teachings of my cousin Fr. Rod Stephens and his superior Bishop Tod Brown! may be your family isn't affected by these heretical teachings and sscandals , but mine are! I pray daily for them! I love them so much, I don't want them to go down the path to hell! The laity in this country need to demand for the removal of these certain Bishops! By the way we don't care if you kneel or stand for Holy Communion, we are not paying attention to people recieving , let alone judging their hearts if they kneel or stand! Did you ever look at the pictures on this blog site, it doesn't look like a SSPX site too me! Well Beeline, annoy , Nate keep your heads in sand, that is where Bishop Brown wants your heads to be!

Nate Wildermuth

Fernando, I didn't intend to put words in your mouth, and my question about Vatican II wasn't meant as an insult or accusation, but only as a way to clarify where we all stand on these issues.

It means a big deal if most of the people criticizing the bishop are also those who have rejected Vatican II. For the sake of our discussion, it means that a lot of what we say won't matter - we'd be starting out from two very different mindsets.

I like the history about the saints in conflict with the popes and the bishops. The story of St. Athanasius is particularly compelling, as he was excommunicated for fighting the Arian heresy (if I'm not mistaken). But saints are saints for everything they have done in heaven, not for everthing they did upon earth.

How do we handle bishops and priests who have rejected the faith? I'm not sure I can offer any good answers. But I know that many of the public and personal attacks that I have seen are just as much an attack on the Church as they are on the bishop.

As to the right to kneel, I agree with everything you've said about having that right. But as another poster pointed out, this isn't about the bishop requiring us to do illicit things. It's about the bishop requiring us to do licit things. I can understand the other issues (such as the sexual cases), but when it comes to things like having to stand - we've got to follow our bishop's direction. I'm not sure I understand why you feel that we don't.

You feel you don't have to stand because you have been given the right to kneel by the Vatican?

You are absolutely right.

But our rights as human beings and our calling as Christians are two separate things. Sometimes we are called to suffer injustice. Sometimes we are called to give up things we rightfully ought to have. Sometimes we are called to sacrifice things which are good, for the sake of love.

You guys have every right to kneel, but your call as Christians, as Catholics under the guidance of your bishop, asks you to honor his leadership and to follow his direction.

I've seen this before - the idea that we have a right to do something, so it's just fine if we pursue that right to the bitter end. Case in point: the Iraq war.

JPII and all the bishops (minus the military Archbishop O'Brien and a few others) all said in one way or another that a preventive war in Iraq would be unjust.

Nobody had the duty (a kind or right?) to listen to the Pope. Our consciences weren't bound to follow his advice. And many Catholics took advantage of that fact.

That may be the same thing that's happening with this kneeling thing. You may have every right to kneel, but by doing so, you are passing over a higher calling (and in doing so and spreading this story, this may actually be a cause of scandal).

But this conversation itself is nuts. We've got bigger fish to fry than one another! :)

Peace...

Beeline

>Beeline, (Algarme) you should have taken >karate classes for the brain. You need them >very much.

I suppose Algarme is someone you know who is into Karate??

Sheeesh!
People have guessed me to be about 4 different people that they know and some were very positive, but Algarme is a new one. Further, I have not been in hiding!

So I did an internet search 'Algarme Catholic' and came upon a Michael Algarme who is listed in Holy Spirit Church Bulletin/Fountain Valley area for June as someone who is sick and on their prayer list.

Do you hate Algarme? Is that why you would list his name in relation to a Karate chop to the brain in reference to me?
Your a sick puppy!

Fernando

Nate:

“wasn't meant as an insult or accusation”

You are contradicting yourself. Since your first postings you started attacking and accusing Carol Blankfield of setting up the Bishop without first asking.

Fernando

“But saints are saints for everything they have done in heaven, not for everything they did upon earth.”

The Congregation for the Saints wouldn’t agree with your statement. For a candidate to start in the path for sainthood, the first thing is the decree of a virtuous life, HERE ON EARTH. Actually the document starts with the statement in the life of the candidate for sainthood there is nothing written or done that is against the teachings of the Church. To be beatified and latter on canonized there is a need for a miracle by the intercession of the candidate, however the miracle can be dispensed by the reigning Pope. Canonization falls into the infallibility of the Church, but beatification does not. By the way, the reason for Origins not to be even a candidate for sainthood was because of what he did upon earth, which was to castrate himself. He has had such a high standing throughout Church history that many of his writings are part of the Divine Office.

Fernando

“But I know that many of the public and personal attacks that I have seen are just as much an attack on the Church as they are on the bishop.”

Please do not generalize, which attack on the Church are you referring to? Be explicit as it is never good to make such blanket statements.

Fernando

“this isn't about the bishop requiring us to do illicit things. It's about the bishop requiring us to do licit things.”

If Rome has sent a letter stating that a bishop or priest cannot deny Holy Communion to a kneeling communicant and if a priest or a bishop insist on the communicant to stand to receive Holy Communion that priest or bishop is doing something illicit because he is acting against direct directives from Rome.

Fernando

“You feel you don't have to stand because you have been given the right to kneel by the Vatican?”

I kneel because my faith in the Holy Eucharist compels me to and I do not try to impose it, not even on my wife when I am standing behind her. I could push her shoulders and force her to kneel, but I do not. I respect her decision on the matter. However when I have been told by Rome that I priest or bishop would be disciplined for trumpeting my right to kneel as you have the right to stand, I would do my part by complaining to Rome. By the way, have read the letters from the Vatican that I have posted? Also “Redemptionis Sacramentum” encourages the laity to file formal complaints to Rome.

Fernando

“That may be the same thing that's happening with this kneeling thing. You may have every right to kneel, but by doing so, you are passing over a higher calling (and in doing so and spreading this story, this may actually be a cause of scandal).”

Again, if Rome wanted us to suffer injustices, they would not have bothered to send warnings that priest and bishops would be disciplined if they were to ILLICITLY deny Holy Communion to kneeling communicants and instead they would have sent an exhortation to the laity to suffer injustice.

By the way next time don't come into the Cantina and start shooting your pistols in all directions and then asking questions to the death bodies. Honor what you say in your website regarding not attacking others.

Peace

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