More Liturgical Video: Arrogant, Anti-Christian Atheist, Richard Dawkins, Questions Fallen Evangelical Minister, Ted Haggard

This video clip is interesting on many levels. It was made before Ted Haggard was publicly humiliated by a methamphetamine-dealing, homosexual prostitute, and provides something of a window into who he was before his fall. (I had never heard of him before the scandal.)

The video can also be seen here: Richard Dawkins Questions Evangelical Pastor

It's interesting to listen to Haggard try to defend Christianity. Sometimes he's right on the money. Dawkins certainly doesn't come off well, even though this video is from his perspective.

Now let's examine the liturgy presented in the video clip:

I was struck by how the liturgies represented in this video resemble the direction Catholic liturgies all over Orange County (and Los Angeles, and San Diego, and probably elsewhere) have been heading for the past few decades.

I believe that more progressive bishops in the United States see Protestant/Evangelical mega-churches like this one as a model for Catholicism (with the possible exception of the tendency towards conservatism and biblically-based Christian moral doctrine). Note how Haggard stresses having things "in the round". Note how the music resembles music played at Catholic liturgies.

If you don't believe that Catholic liturgists who think themselves cutting edge are cribbing from the Evangelicals, check out this video: The 2006 Los Angeles archdiocesan Religious Education Congress, Closing Liturgy

(You may need to download the required media players to view the clips.)

As a side note on poor Ted Haggard (please pray for him), apparently, Mr. Haggard harbored some anti-Catholic prejudices, as is evidenced in this story from Catholic News Service: Catholic filmmaker finds suspicion about her faith among evangelicals

Here's the relevant section of the article:

"My one disturbing encounter was at the New Life Church in Colorado Springs (Colo.) with Pastor Ted Haggard," head of the National Association of Evangelicals, who is "the senior minister of the church," Ewing said.

"I was in the service, and we had three cameras rolling, and there were 3,000 people in the church, and my cameraman was on the stage shooting him, and Pastor Ted started teasing the cameraman: 'Where are you from? England? Do you go to church?'" she recounted.

When the cameraman told Rev. Haggard that he goes to church when he's in England, the minister said, "So you're in the Church of England." The cameraman replied, "No, I'm Catholic," according to Ewing. "Pastor Ted turned to the congregation – and I have this on tape – in a very mocking tone, he said, 'Oh, we l-o-o-o-ve the Catholics, don't we?' and people started laughing.

"Why would he whack another religion?" she asked. "There was a disparaging way about how everyone reacted. As the leader of the National Association of Evangelicals, he is a representative of 30 million people and a religiously respected person in the movement. For him to joke like that, I was pretty alarmed."

Sad.

Any thoughts?

Comments

[raj]

Regarding the side note, that Haggard would have a prejudice against the Catholic Church is hardly surprising, but I don't think it's as bad as the film director makes it out to be. If the cameraman had confirmed he was Anglican, I'm pretty certain Haggard would have made a similarly thinly veiled snarky remark.

I think it's also worth noting that the film "Jesus Camp" does not seem to be objective in its negative portrayal of Pentecostal Christians. More on this can be read in the following movie review by Michael Medved.

[James]

Dawkins is the one that comes off as a complete jerk. And I love how he and so many other atheists so often confuse rational with empirical. There is nothing inherently irrational about the belief in a creator, although maybe he was speaking specifically about the belief in a young Earth. And I don't know who he has been reading, but there are only a few other options than a creator creating things: it always has existed, it came from nothing...and I'll let you decide which sounds crazier or more "irrational". And for his complaint about the pastor "indoctrinating" others, how about his scummy video and hit piece. He gets to come on private property and be completely obnoxious, with no response? Wow. Must be nice to be him.

[JMC]

Snide remarks about Catholics are not limited to Evangelicals. You ought to hear the Southern Baptist churches and the "Church of God" crowd. My experience has been that, with the exception of Lutherans, Methodists, and Episcopals/Anglicans, all Protestants have Chick-itis (as in Jack Chick of the infamous anti-Catholic comic-book tracts) when it comes to the Catholic Church.

[A Simple Sinner]

Of course Haggard and his ilk " we l-o-o-o-ve the Catholics"! Our flock has been an EASY target for Evangelicals and Pentecostals alike. We have made this so in what we have done (instilled a rudimentary understanding of the Divinity of Christ, the sacredness of scripture & the value of organized religion) and what we have FAILED to do: Catechize.

You know if groups as disaparate as Evangelicals, Pentecostals, Eastern Orthodox, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, athiests, agnostics, and many more found the Catholic Church to be "agreeable" and left us well enough alone, something would be desperately WRONG.

As to the charge of "modern liturgists" drinking from the Evangelical well.... I suppose there is some truth to it. For the life of me I cannot understand why such innocation is turned to for inspiration. As someone who has prayed with the Byzantine Catholics for over a decade, I sometimes think "If they wanted to add some new prayers to the Roman rite, they could have borrowed them here!"

As for Haggard and his gang I saw an interview with the new acting senior pastor. I am sorry, Pastor Banana Republic looked straight out of a boy-band. See this clip:

http://americablog.blogspot.com/2006/11/hear-alleged-voicemails-of-religious.html

Amazing how the media paints all priests as pedophiles with these guys around.

Check out the following link paying extra attention to the highlights in the choir director's hair:

http://www.newspeakblog.com/the_blog/2006/11/gay_or_fey_new_.html

I dunno. Is this BETTER than some creepy Dr. Smith (from "Lost in Space") wannabee like John Geoghan? I suppose it is because at least they are snorting meth with other "adults".

[A Simple Sinner]

JMC writes: "Snide remarks about Catholics are not limited to Evangelicals. You ought to hear the Southern Baptist churches and the "Church of God" crowd. My experience has been that, with the exception of Lutherans, Methodists, and Episcopals/Anglicans, all Protestants have Chick-itis (as in Jack Chick of the infamous anti-Catholic comic-book tracts) when it comes to the Catholic Church."

On the other hand, with folks from the Lutherans, Methodists, and Episcopals/Anglicans you tend to more commonly notice some serious "eye-rolling" over the "antiquated" practices Rome still holds which they themselves have been "sophisticated" enough to reject - like priestly celibacly, ban on female ordination, etc... A lot of "We're just like you but we don't bother with...anymore." Those Catholics!

[Dude]

First; Depending on which Lutherans we are speaking of, they typically have a very large problem with our Church, still. This can be evidenced by the 43rd article of their confession (Missouri Synod Lutheran) stating that the Pope of Rome is the antichrist. To view: http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=579

Secondly; Baptists consider themselves to be Evangelicals.

Third; It's amazing to me that the idiots of both sides are continually allowed to define the argument: As if evolution and God are mutually exclusive! The rude, idiotic atheist seems to think (and I find this continually from experience) that if you believe God created life, that it means a defacto young earth!
Conversely, the typical idiotic Protestant Evangelical seems to think that any person whom questions a young earth (ala 6,000 or so years old) is a believer in the atheist camp. Or one who believes that Intelligent Design has less problems than God-based evolution. What they automatically believe is that to believe in evolution is defacto Godlessness.

I believe both are incorrect, as I believe evolution and God do not have to be mutually exclusive.

Haggard has a strange presence...kind of like the chicken lady on the "The Kids In The Hall" series. I thought for a second he was going to step up and throw a spasmotic combo at Dawkins.
Dawkins is even worse. He is a very unpleasant fellow, to put it politely. I agree, Haggard did have him on some points, but that would be about the depth of it.
Neither would be qualified on the intellectual level to carry Aquinas' miscellaneous ear wax.

Regarding the Catholic moviemaker; Is she at this point Catholic? She remembered going to church as a kid??? Turning Christians into Nazi's?
I bet she would have no problem letting the Church have it in one of her documentaries as well, but perhaps not as bad.

I just finished with a weekend with about a dozen in-laws. All conservative Protty's. All Evangelicals bordering on Fundamentalists, with some being outright Fundies. They run the gamut from Methodist to Southern Baptist to "Non-denominational" (which is code for mainline Baptist - which is the theology they hold to, and the conference to which they generally submit) They are all "ABC" - "Anything But Catholic." I seriously understand the part about even Jews are treated with less suspicion and more respect, hence my term, ABC. Some are simply more polite, some have simply a better disposition, or gentler nature, but all despise and detest the Catholic Church.
I have much experience with this.

Funny, my wife and I went to mass last night and listened to the readings on Mark and Hebrews. At the Methodist Church we went to today (in-laws) we heard the same readings. This is the 2nd time. Are the Methodists on the same scriptural Calender and the Catholics now? If so, is this a part of the 'Ecumenical Movement?" It was intersting to see the totally liberal Catholic priest in my wife's hometown give a "we don't believe any of the miracles any longer, as we are enlightened and find the bible to be full of holes" interspersed with the militant social gospel, interpretation of the reading of Hebrews. Then we go to the Methodist Church, and hear the thinly-veiled, "Christ entered the Holy of Holies" sermon, which had the underlining of "No more sacrifice" - I.E. No Catholic Eucharist etc.

Good stuff!

[Some Day]

When you advance in virtue, you advance in all virtues. Maybe one is outstanding, but nonetheless they all progress. When you sin and you sin badly, EVERYTHING GOES DOWN TOO.
Including intelligence.
Both guys are idiots. And the pastor is worst because wolves in sheep's clothing are worst than the obvious wolf.