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Wednesday, January 10, 2007

Comments

Anne

Stephanie,
What a stretch!!
The fact is - B. Brown did nothing about Salazar. (B. Brown also does nothing about liturgical abuse and neither does Fr. Moneypenny)

You said he is "a friend of the family - his integrity as a priest...exemplary" - He does not follow the liturgical norms nor the GIRM nor the instructions from the Sacred Congregations. ("But he's a nice guy" is the usual response to statements like these that include "just the facts".)

Fernando didn't "attack" Fr. Moneypenny - not by a longshot! Maybe Fr. Moneypenny is just clueless - about the GIRM, about the teachings of the Church regarding the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
(that's a valid statement based on what goes on there during the Mass).
But he NEVER implied "that St. Joseph's is rife with corruption and the hiding of pedophiles."
Fernando mentioned his name as the pastor of the church and that he would, if posed the objection, would probably say - "we can do that if I say so- (obviously he's already said so - he's the pastor and, as you said, this goes on all the time - "a parish tradition" you said). - IT IS NOT ALLOWED!YOU CAN'T DO IT! and it's your pastor's job to make sure it DOESN'T happen.(re: the liturgical abuses).
Step back a little, Stephanie. Take a good objective look at the documents of the Church and at what he allows during the Mass. He does not exhibit exemplary integrity to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Integrity - Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code.
He may be a nice guy - but that's not enough. He's supposed to be more. He's supposed to model obedience to the teachings of the Church - he's supposed to KNOW the teachings of the Church (especially regarding the Mass).


-

Manuel Ruiz

"his character and his integrity as a priest, which I find to be exemplary."
Stephanie,
It is sad to see that your friendship with Fr. Moneypenny blinds you! During his installation Mass there were more liturgical abuses besides the changing of the words by B. Brown and the half naked pretty ladies, such as using Glass containers to be used as a chalice and ciboria. This is something forbiden by "Redemptionis Sacramentum" and other Church documents nonetheless your "exemplary" priest used them. Also your "exemplary" priest was the administrator of your parish while Rev. Martin Tran was in your parish, Rev. Martin Tran loves to change the words of the Mass and he still starts every Mass with a "good morning" or "good evening" instead of using the formula approved by the Church and Fr. Moneypenny did not correct him - ever. If Fr. Moneypenny fails to oversee his parish in the most important aspect, the Holy Mass, how can you say that his integrity as a priest is "exemplary"? Please explain.

Fernando Guido

“For the edification of readers to these comments, and for fair disclosure, please be advised that Fernando Guido is the individual to whom Fr. Cesar Salazar's laptop was sold (not directly - I believe there were two owners between Fr. Cesar and Mr. Fernando) and who first alleged that there was child pornography on the latop in 2002. Mr. Guido is also married, if I am not mistaken, to a member of SNAP.”


Stephanie,

Fair disclosure? Where do I start? I believe that by making the comment that the laptop once owned by Father Salazar passed through more than one owner you want to imply that maybe it was one of the other owners who put those pictures in that computer. Are you a lawyer by any chance? But guess what? From the mouth of Father Michael McKiernan himself, the then Secretary of Bishop Brown, I was told that, when confronted, Father Salazar ADMITTED TO HAVING A LIKING FOR CHILD PORNOGRAPHY. Furthermore, I just looked at the definition of the word alleged and this is what I got: declared but not proved, alleged(a): doubtful or suspect, questionably true or asserted to be true. Do you think I would even dare to make such accusations without any evidence? Do you think I am so stupid as to set myself up for a potential lawsuit by making unwarranted accusations against a priest? I only decided to go public with this matter because I had ways of proving my assertions, in other words like they say in the old country, “If I am telling that the cat is missing some hairs is because I am holding them in my hand.”

You are reading more into my last post than I intended to present. I can attest to the fact that Father Moneypenny had nothing to do with the incident of Father Salazar since he was not the pastor back then, it was Father Christopher Smith. When did I even make an accusation or implication against Father Moneypenny as to the way the Salazar order was handled? As far as I know he did not have anything to do with it.

“It seems that the implication made by Mr. Guido is that St. Joseph's is rife with corruption and the hiding of pedophiles.”

What? The only relevance that Saint Joseph has to the Salazar ordeal was that this is the parish at which Father Salazar, an admitted devotee of child pornography, was stationed at.

At the same time, I only made the comparison between the Salazar incident and the incident with the Samoan community during the installation of Father Moneypenny as pastor to illustrate that, at least for Bishop Brown liturgical abuses are not on his list of priorities since he did not handle with much care more serious matters.

And thanks for the heads up regarding my wife, when I get home this afternoon I will give her news about her membership with SNAP. I remember that when this incident happened I also heard that my wife was a member of SNAP and as soon as I got home I had a talk with her and confronted her for keeping this information a secret from me. By the way this brings me to another concern: the Salazar ordeal happened around July 2003, more than three years ago. Does that mean that the annual dues for my wife are overdue by three years? Bummer, I wander if she has to pay penalties for that.

Talk about my wife, I remember she was terrified about the potential outcome when I decided to go public with the story. More than once she asked me if I thought this was the best decision.

Stephanie, have you ever wander why is it that after more than three years the diocese has not reinstated Father Salazar as an active priest if there was nothing to my story? As far as I know they are now in the process of defrocking him, most properly known as laicized. What does that tell you?

You know what? The sad thing is that before I went public with the story I gave the diocese the opportunity to deal with this matter in a better way than the one they choose. More than once I told Father Michael that the only thing I was asking for was for Father Salazar to be removed from a location where he had access to children. I knew that it would be difficult for the DA to present a viable criminal case against him. But the Diocese and I had a bigger obligation to any potential victim. I remember when my first child was born, I would stand next to him at his crib and I would look at his innocence. I would then imagine the way I would fell if someone would victimized him in a sexual manner. As much as I would not want for something like that to happen to my child, likewise, I did not want that to happen to another potential victim of Father Salazar. I know that if I did not do anything, years latter I could not live with myself if I was to find out that Father Salazar acted on his inclinations. I knew that I would be help accountable to God and to that victim for failing to do something when I had the chance.

Stephanie, tell you what. Before you make an unfounded claim about me and the Salazar incident, why don’t you just ask me instead in this forum? This way you will get the story from the horses’ mouth and not from gossip. How bout it? Or even better, tell me which Sunday Mass do you attend at Saint Joseph’s and I will make an effort to be there with my wife and my three kids so you can ask me all the questions you want about this incident. I would be looking forward to attending Mass at Saint Joseph; I believe it is one of the most beautiful churches in the Diocese, too bad that Monsignor Davis wrecked the sanctuary of that church when he was pastor.

Fernando Guido
fguido17@yahoo.com

Stephanie A. Richer

Fernando,

What was the unfounded claim. You did indeed own the laptop and you were the one who brought it to the attention of the Diocese, no? And the topic was on whether there was some liturgical abuse involving the placement of a lei on Bishop Brown and you unilaterally brought up Fr. Salazar, yes? I was told that you were married to a member of SNAP, hence my disclaimer at the beginning of my statement.

I am usually at the 11:00 am Mass on Sundays. My family and I habitually sit up front, on the side.

I don't have any questions re: Fr. Salazar (although other parishioners might want to talk to you), but you can come and see if the original topic - liturgical abuses - is at issue at St. Joseph's. If you, or Anne, or Manuel Ruiz have issue with Samoan practices, they usually occur at the 9:00 am Mass. I don't attend the Spanish language Masses, so I don't know about any alleged liturgical abuses there, but go to www.stjosephsa.org for a complete Mass schedule.

Now, next Sunday Fr. John will be on vacation, if you wanted to talk to him, and I suspect Fr. Christopher Smith will be filling in at the English language Masses, since Fr. Michael had them this weekend, so you may get the chance to speak to him. If you wait until 1/28/07, Fr. John will be back but more so, we'll be having a bake sale after Mass, hosted by the 1st grade - bring money, because the school needs the support.

Anne


No need to go to the Mass, I'm looking at a video of one.

Can we get back to the issue - the GIRM says no one in the sanctuary (except the ordained) and no one is to get special attention (Sacrosanctum Concilium posted above) - Are we in agreement on the fact that the Samoan woman should not have been in the sanctuary based on the GIRM and Sacrosanctum Concilium?

And again, the bishop is the shepherd -it is his job to assure that this abuse doesn't happen - but - don't bother calling the office - he won't speak to anyone even when he IS in the office (last week was another "he's out of town for the week" week (with his secretary and Director of Clergy Personel - Fr. Tuan Pham) What a life! that's about 10 weeks vacation in the last 12 months.

If the man actually showed up at Masses throughout the county (1 or 2 per Sunday) he would be doing his job. He's not doing his job - stop paying him.

Stephanie A. Richer

Anne,

Okay, let's get back to the issue. First of all, let's take the Sacrosanctum Concilium. I believe you have quoted that out of context. I looked at the section "Norms Drawn From the Hierarchic and Communal Nature of the Liturgy" from which you quote Paragraph 32. Read it all, because it is talking about the fact that the Mass is not a "private function" and refers to the fact that the Mass is meant for all, and no one should be treated specially, such as inviting them to receive Communion alone, or the Liturgy changed to single them out for honors. I do not see placing a lei as a sign of respect a deviation from that. Perhaps you could argue that it is a deviation from liturgical vestments, which is covered in another section.

As for the Samoan woman being in the Sanctuary, first let me point out that the picture is misleading - I believe she only came to the foot of the Sanctuary since typically the leis are presented when the bread and wine are brought presented, and the priest comes down to the front of the altar and steps out of the Sanctuary to receive them. If you were to come to one of our Masses, you would see how the altar is structured. I was at that Mass, and I recall that Bishop Brown stepped down with Fr. Moneypenny.

Selah.

Stephanie A. Richer

Anne, I would also point out that the GIRM does not say "no one in the Sanctuary except the ordained." See below.

*************************************
68. As for other ministers, some perform different functions inside
the sanctuary, others outside.

The first kind include those deputed as special ministers to administer communionand those who carry the missal, the cross, candles, the bread, wine, water, and the thurible.
***********************************

seminarian

hi,

i'm a seminarian studying for the diocese of orange. I believe in following the GIRM just like all of you. after reading all of your comments. I am scared of continueing. I'm scared that if i make a mistake or forget one rule, i would be burned at the stake. I understand the frustration. I get that way too. But i can barely hear love in your voices any more. seems I need a bigger backbone to be a priest. because you've made me rethink my vocation. I always thought the congregation would support me as a priest even with my weaknesses. I love you all my brothers and sisters in Christ. Maybe someday I will serve you. I will do my best to follow the GIRM.

Patrick

Arguing over the details of the New Mass GIRM is like arguing over which caliber is best for shooting yourself in the foot.

Aaron

Patrick:

I'm afraid you nailed it. This discussion thread should gilded and hung in a museum. It perfectly describes the uselessness of the GIRM. No one has any idea what a Mass should look like. Parishes have become liturgical ghettos in which the faithful hide from the liturgical "norms" practiced in neighboring parishes. The fact that Catholics are arguing about whether it is appropriate for a lay person to be distributing leis during Mass is so bizarre--so depressing--that I can hardly take it. Traditional Mass!! Please?

Fernando Guido

“What was the unfounded claim. You did indeed own the laptop and you were the one who brought it to the attention of the Diocese, no? And the topic was on whether there was some liturgical abuse involving the placement of a lei on Bishop Brown and you unilaterally brought up Fr. Salazar, yes? I was told that you were married to a member of SNAP, hence my disclaimer at the beginning of my statement.”

Stephanie,

That is the problem with not going to the horses’ mouth. I never owned the computer in question. A friend of mine did an also, then employee of the Diocese. Let me tell you what happened. This friend of mine and I would get together at the Media Center for lunch every day. One particular day I come over and he shows a computer he had just purchased. He is all excited about it and asks what I think about his new acquisition. I take a look at it; I look at the features and such. I opened the web browser and as I am about to put the address for a particular website when I see that there are the addresses to pornographic websites. This raises my eyebrows and prompts me to look at the cookies in the computer. I then began to encounter homosexual pornographic pictures. Legally speaking no harm there, but I then notice that the pictures began to change in nature and there is where things got ugly. I then start asking questions to my friend about the computer, its origin and such. I knew for a fact that he was computer illiterate, so I knew that he did not have anything to with those pictures. I then show him some of the pictures and I told him that something needed to be done. He was brave enough to take the matter to Bishop Soto, who then took the matter to Father Michael McKiernan. Months latter after the police investigation had concluded I was informed by Father Michael about the decision of the DA and the decision of the diocese regarding Father Salazar.

Again, why is it that I brought this topic into the discussion? To make the comparison about how the diocese handles even more serious matters and to make the point that liturgical abuses are considered a non issue for the Diocese and for your average diocesan priest. I mean when we have Hallowen Masses at Corpus Christ and Father Barney, I mean Father Bayle making a mockery out of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass that pretty much tells you the state of affairs when it comes to the liturgy.

Do you know many people I know that have brought to the attention incidents of liturgical abuses to the diocese? You would be amazed, does anything change? Not that I know, or how bout the diocese complying with the direct orders from Rome regarding particular matters such the laity purifying the sacred vessels? They are pretending that Rome has never said anything on the matter. How long ago did Rome said that the laity should not pour the Precious Blood in the chalices, that this should be done by the priest prior to the consecration? I can count with one had the number of parishes where this is actually done properly.

Fernando Guido

hi,
i'm a seminarian studying for the diocese of orange. I believe in following the GIRM just like all of you. after reading all of your comments. I am scared of continueing. I'm scared that if i make a mistake or forget one rule, i would be burned at the stake. I understand the frustration. I get that way too. But i can barely hear love in your voices any more. seems I need a bigger backbone to be a priest. because you've made me rethink my vocation. I always thought the congregation would support me as a priest even with my weaknesses. I love you all my brothers and sisters in Christ. Maybe someday I will serve you. I will do my best to follow the GIRM.

Seminarian,

Give me a break, when did the last execution take place? How many priests do know that have been reprimanded for not doing things properly? Was Father Bailey thrown out of Corpus Christi or sent to into exile or something similar for giving a Barney blessing at the end of Mass? Was Father Agustin Escobedo sent back to Columbia for lifting a child instead of the Sacred Host during Mass? How can you claim that you have not heard love when we speak about these things? Actually we speak about these things out of love for the Mass. It causes great pain to see this most sacred act being desecrated in the form of a “Halloween Mass”. You do not need a bigger backbone to follow the rules. On the contrary, you need to a bigger backbone to become an arrogant person who thinks he knows better then the common wisdom of the Church and come up with your own little twisted ideas about how to celebrate the Mass.

Carol

Seminarian-
2 recommendations
1. GET OUT OF ORANGE (If you're at St. John's Camarillo or Menlo Park)Go to Nebraska or St. Louis, or a good religious order - Fathers of Mercy, Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter, Fransiscan Friars of the Renewal (Fr. Groeshel's order)
2. Know the Mass -
This is not about mistakes - this is about constant, continuous abuses by the same arrogant renegade priests who tell people who correct them, "If you don't like the Mass here, then get out!" (spoken by Fr. Joseph Nguyen at Holy Spirit, Fountain Valley to a lady who said, "Father, that was a beautiful Mass this morning, Thank you. I'm not sure if you are aware of it, but the Church says that you're not supposed to call for applause during the Mass." (He had called for applause before the final blessing for the Sisters of the Sacred Heart using harmony for one of the communion hymns.)He actually pointed to the parking lot and hollered,"If you don't like the Mass here then GET OUT!"

Fernando Guido

Seminarian,

If you care about being a holy priest this is the place to be, but you will become holy by being faithful to the teaching of the Church. Consequently you will be persecuted because you are not “up to date with the times”. If you endure said persecution you will then be holy. At the same time you will be tempted to go with the flow and get caught on the conformity. If you do not want to carry a heavy burden while becoming holy, then run to Nebraska like Carol said and do not look back.

Fernando Guido

Stephanie

You keep saying that we should take the matter about the Samoans directly to them. I beg to differ; they do not run the parish. Father Moneypenny does. But like we have proven it to you, how would he react to someone bringing these matters to his attention? Would he say what your average diocesan priest does? If you do not like it…. you know what to do.

Fernando

Chris

I first discovered your website last night and this was also the first time I saw the videos and followed the links on all of these liturgical abuse posts. Having only come into the Church this past year, I had heard of liturgical abuse and I THOUGHT I had encountered liturgical abuse myself, a time or two, in different parishes here and there but NOTHING like what I saw in these videos taken in Orange County!

I could not believe my own eyes and ears! I mean, I am still, nearly 24 hours later, utterly amazed, disgusted and appalled that such abuses are taking place in the parishes of our country!

I am seriously interested in joining the fight against such sacrilege taking place but I don't even have an idea of where to start! Any ideas or suggestions?

God bless and keep you!

seminarian

I dont need the bishop to do the execution this already hurts enough. Not that i disagree with what you are saying. I agree that it is out of love that you are here and that you are raising these discussions but i still hear hate in your voice. Again i know it is of love that you speak this way. I am only telling you how I feel your words sound to me. I take seriously the sanctity of the mass and I am studying the liturgy as we speak. We go through the girm page by page and our teacher points out the mistakes that parishes tend to make. Thank you to all who respond here because no matter what you say, you are saying something, and I'm am filled with joy for that. I will follow our mother Church in all her wisdom. as for enduring persecution, it's something i already know and i only said it in the other post half jokingly. persecution will always be there as Jesus tells us in the Bible. Our Church will always be filled with people that are filled with love and spirit. Because there are so many views we will always be in these discussions. I've had many discussions with both conservatives and progressives. A priest will never make everyone happy. I'm sure there is a flip side to this site, with one saying that the church is too strict and only does things by the book. A priest will always have someone yelling at them. It is something I've already come to terms with. Holiness is only something God can give and judge. Again, thank you. I will continue to keep you all in my prayers and of course the Church, that we may always follow Her guidance for the greater glory of God. Always love. "This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." Jn 13:35. Good night all, classes start tomorrow. I like you guys so I don't think i'll get out of Orange just yet. =)

Fernando Guido

Chris,

Depending on how much rage are you willing to deal with, you have different venues. For example, if things happen at your parish and you have a good relationship with the pastor or the priest who did something he should not have, you can respectfully point out things and maybe you will get somewhere. Here in the Diocese of Orange there is a particular priest for whom I have a great deal of respect and I have been following his vocation from the time he was ordained. When I miss Sunday Mass at my parish I got to the 7:00 p.m. Mass he celebrates since I know that overall I will find liturgical sanity there. He is a very good homilist, but he was fond of extending his homilies up to 20 minutes. After his homilies, he would then realize that he had gone too long and he would celebrate the rest of the Mass in an expedited way. He would omit the Nicean Creed and replace it with Creed of the Apostles. I then decided to write him a letter, I gave him kudos for his homilies and his general piety, but I pointed the other things. Since this is not my regular parish, I did not see the results immediately. But once I came back after I wrote him the letter, I could tell the difference. Unfortunately I can tell you that this is not very common. You have read stories here of incidents in which people bring liturgical issues to the priest and they do not get a very good reception. Part of the problem is that some of these priests were not well trained when they were in the seminary and fell offended when a laity, who did not spend that same amount of years studying for the priesthood, comes to them and tries to tell them what to do. On the other hand you have pure arrogance and a crisis of faith. These men have ceased to believe that when they celebrate the Mass heaven and earth come together and that we are standing next the choirs of angels and the saints worshiping the Lamb of God. They think this is a celebration of us being a community, that is why there is so much emphasis on the hand shaking is best know for the sign of peace and such matters. But eventually this becomes boring and that is why they eventually recourse to gimmicks such as the ones of Father Barney, I mean Father Bayle at Corpus Christi and do their Halloween Masses and Barney blessings. This crisis of faith and the use of such gimmicks are similar to the drowning of the Titanic. The ship is going down, but the occupants believe that by rearranging the chairs in the ship they are going to prevent the inevitable.

Fernando Guido
fguido17@yahoo.com

seminarian

I agree with you Fernando. And I appreciate the tone in which you wrote it in. I hear that the Church goes on cycles between conservative and liberal. And the priests that come out of each time cycle are different. When new ordained priests came out long ago they kept calling the old priests too conservative. Now existing priests especially those from the 70's are complaining that these new priests and seminarians are too conservative. We can see that the Church is a living body. Even when there are times tough there is much good that comes out of it. I can see this especially in people like you guys. This is how we grow. God bless! Keep up the fire but fuel it with love as i know you are. =)

Joe

There's only two orthodox Catholic Parishes that I know of: OLG in El Monte, and St. Peter Chanel in Hawaiian Gardens.
I happen to teach Confirmation at OLG in La Habra, I happen to be the most disliked Confirmation teacher, (probally because I'm an orthodox Catholic, lol)....I avoid the teen masses whenver possible. (Sorry, the whole Guitar and Drums thing at mass doesn't work for me).
My advice to the seminarian:
If you follow the book, you won't make a mistake. Watch how Pope Benedict does the Mass, follow him.

If you're looking for an orthodox parish as i've mentioned Our Lady of Guadalupe in El Monte. (Spanish). St. Peter Chanel's (English). I wish I knew of others :)

Carl R. Oapt

Without saying weather I am liberal or conservative, just one comment. No matter which side you are on, you should have more respect for the Bishop of your dioceses. Calling him a nut a fruit cake is just bad manners and not acceptable in socity as a general rule of decorum. I am from the archdioceses of Chicago. peace Carl

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