The Gay-Friendly Archdiocese Of Los Angeles & The Sign Of The Fish

The Archdiocese of Los Angeles wants you to order a rainbow fish pin "as a sign of recognition of our lesbian and gay sisters and brothers".

Here is the web page: Ministry with Lesbian and Gay Catholics

Here are some quotes:

See in the fish pin a sign of recognition of our lesbian and gay sisters and brothers. The pin signals solidarity with all people of faith who promote justice and inclusivity for every person in their faith communities.

In 2006 we celebrated our 20th anniversary of this ministry. The Ministry with Lesbian and Gay Catholics was founded by Cardinal Roger Mahony on February 4, 1986 and is supported throughout the Archdiocese at parish level a an active outreach ministry with gay and lesbian Catholics, their parents, families and friends.

I have a question:  How does wearing a rainbow fish pin help anyone?  If I see someone wearing one, what should that lead me to think?

Does it mean the person is a homosexual?  Is it meant to make it easier for homosexuals to recognize one another and connect?

Does it mean the person has a friend or relative who is homosexual?  What, then, by wearing the rainbow fish do they want people to think or feel about homosexuality?

Why would a ministry to people with an intrinsically disordered orientation encourage people who have that orientation, as well as everybody else, to recognize and define the totality of a human person by their disordered orientation?  Will they be making pins that assist alcoholics, drug addicts, and people with eating disorders in recognizing one another?  How about a pin for people who are promiscuous or for people who tend to commit adultery?  How about one for people who struggle with an addiction to internet pornography?  Why not?

Is a disorder something to wear proudly, like a badge of honor?

I'm not suggesting that people should experience constant humiliation for their struggle with disordered inclinations.  However, it seems to me that a pin like this is like The Scarlet Letter in reverse, and meant to acclimate people to accepting homosexuality, especially by encouraging people to wear the pin as a sign of solidarity.

I also had a problem with the ambiguity within the printed Mission Statement, especially the opening paragraph:

The Ministry With Lesbian and Gay Catholics (MLGC) recognizes that all persons with a homosexual orientation are capable of living a full Catholic life in union with all the members of the Church.

All Catholics who experience transient or more permanent homosexual tendencies are capable of living a full Catholic life, so long as they don't act on their homosexual tendencies – just as all Catholics who are tempted to rob liquor stores and steal old ladies' purses are capable of living a full Catholic life, so long as they don't rob liquor stores or steal old ladies' purses.

Then there was this:

MLGC calls on concerned Catholics and all people of good will to know and share in the challenges, burdens and blessings of homosexual persons living a Christian life within the Catholic tradition.

Does anyone else have a problem with the quoted section above?

Referencing a "homosexual person" seems to be another instance of identifying a disordered orientation as the defining element of a person's being.  Does anyone else agree?

It is, indeed, a blessing for person with homosexual tendencies to live a Christian life within the Catholic tradition, because it means that such a person is not acting on their homosexual inclinations and resisting temptations to sin, but that doesn't appear to be what they're getting at when they speak of the "blessing of homosexual persons".  It seems as though they want people to view having homosexual inclinations as a blessing.  Does anyone else get that impression?

It seems to me that it's unhealthy to define yourself by identifying your disordered appetites (whatever they may be) with the totality of your human identity.  All the language referencing "homosexual orientation" and "homosexual persons" and encouraging people to wear rainbow fish pins as a sign of their homosexual tendencies or their fond feelings about people who experience homosexual tendencies doesn't seem like something that's part of "the Catholic tradition".

Can you see St. Paul, any of the apostles, or the early Church fathers encouraging the early Christians to do something like this?  Can you imagine any of the saints encouraging people to do so?

I haven't even mentioned that many people have reported that so-called "Lesbian & Gay Ministries" are (in some places) a thinly veiled means of allowing Catholics with homosexual inclinations to meet one another – like a singles group or a dating service.

Any thoughts?

Comments

[J]

Wow... this is so scary, yet it is only a small reflection of Satan's work on earth. I have always viewed the sign of the fish (or ICTHUS as I learned in Sunday School), to be a symbol of Jesus Christ's divinity. Are we now trying to twist it into a symbol of what we want to believe, instead of follow God as members of His Church? Yes, we can be friendly to homosexuals, but we won't accept their ways.
Pray for the Diocese of Los Angeles and all those around the world who agree with this point of view.

- J, age 13, USA
Eucharistic Heart of Jesus, Have mercy on us!

[Ted]

Mahony shows his true colors once again!

[Mona Alona]

Give me a break.

Hey, the Los Angeles diocese should have pins recognizing all the other disorders not just homosexuality.

If they're going to make fish pins for our lesbian and gay brothers and sisters why stop there? They should have special little pins for our brothers and sisters who stuggle with zoophilia, pederasty the list of sexual/mental disorders goes on and on and let's not forget our brothers and sisters who struggle with alcoholism, drugs and gambling. Why do the gays always get special recognition what makes their sin and struggle so much greater than the others?

[Simone]

Here is why Mona:

We have a disordered Cardinal attempting to create his own special disordered church. Orthodoxy is repugnant to him.

[Esther]

I searched for a link to Courage which would have given me a glimmer of hope that maybe, Cardinal Mahoney's actions were sincere in helping our gay brothers and sisters through Catholic teachings. I did not find it.

[Patrick]

I lived in Cardinal Mahony's diocese until a few years ago. This sort of thing isn't new there. Years ago priests from Mahony's diocese would appear on L.A. radio talk shows and proclaim that there isn't anything wrong with homosexual activity as long as it didn't involve the entire body (I am trying to be delicate here). The priests who were chosen to appear on the radio and say these things sounded (how should I put this)...soft spoken.

I know of good priests in that diocese, but there is a real problem with the leadership and among the ranks. The Church needs to get really tough at the seminary level to prevent further infiltration of the clergy by men with seriously disordered appetites. The Church has not even begun to address this problem (esp. in the U.S).

[A Simple Sinner]

"Referencing a "homosexual person" seems to be another instance of identifying a disordered orientation as the defining element of a person's being. Does anyone else agree?"

HELL YES!

I am sorry, the LA is off the radar on this one and it is just plain sick.

For those of us that DID live in that deathstyle and came back to the Church to affirm her constant teaching, this is an utter slap in the face. It is grossly placating, and patently false. To be as cool as "Will & Grace" Phoney Mahoney is essentially LYING about where the Church stands and what she teaches.

Frankly I am waiting for a special "Queer Eye for the 'Straight' Guy" special where they re-do Roger. He would rather love it. A gorgeous new pink, er "rose" cassock for him!

The use of the "gay pride rainbow" is inexoribly linked to the "gay pride movement" One that teaches and practices a lifestyle so very opposed to the Church's teaching that they cannot be reconciled.

Can one imagine the symbols and colors of other ideologies going on a "Catholic Pin"? A swastika? A hammer & sickle? A Chi-com yellow star on a red background? I certainly can't.

Grow a flippin backbone. Stand up, say "here we stand" put it all out there and let it be known what Christ and His Church teaches.

These guys are cowards.

[Peter]

Why the surprise. Perverts control much of the institutional Catholic Church in America.

[Titus]

I've always said that the Catholic Bishops in America are the equivalent of a criminal organization. I still hope that we'll see a RICO prosecution in the near future.

[Anne]

Isn't there already an "identifier" worn by Catholics that "signals solidarity with all people of faith who promote justice and inclusivity for every person in their faith communities"?

It used to be called a "CRUCIFIX".

C. Mahoney is in the last stages of the total brainwashing of his diocese (and B. Brown with him).

Step 1 - promote homosexually active priests to positions of authority in the Chancery office (whether or not they can actually DO the job (Fr. Fenton is a prime example of an incompetant - in the position of Director of Media Relations. Every time he opened his mouth Bishop Brown had to hire a PR firm to fix it.- so he was FINALLY replaced by --- THE costly PR firm!)

Step 2 - Promote homosexually active priests and lay people (or those with active homosexuals in their family)to positions of authority at the parish level.

Step 3 - Ban ALL traces of Catholic tradition (Tridentine, Latin, Chant, only men in the sanctuary, kneeling).

Step 4 - DON'T preach about the sacraments - (and then don't schedule confessions or adoration (ex: Fr. "Barney" Bailey),

Step 5 - Do the opposite of whatever the dioceses that have an ABUNDANCE of priestly vocations do (and complain "We have a vocations problem - we need women on the altar!")

The Catholic Church in So Cal is on the mat and the ref has begun the count -
These perverts have already destroyed the true faith in the hearts and minds of the great majority of people who still dare call themselves Catholic.

God help us

[Steve from Virginia]

When will Rome intervene?

[Chrysostom in the 21st Century]

Regarding Homosexual people- in my priestly ministry I have encountered may a homosexual people who have come back to church and God because of groups like Ministry with Gay and Lebians... a good number of them have understood their condition and given their life to God and his love and mercy. Jesus said to go out and search out the lost sheep, not the nearly lost sheep or the sheep at risk. If some of our homosexual brothers and sisters are lost sheep, then we must do all possible to bring them back to God's fold. That is not going to happen by demonizing them or Mahoney's attempts. Whatever Mahoney's motives were, more than a few people have benefited from this ministry. We should thank God and rejoice that at least a few have come back to the Father's house... Let us rejoice for those few and go out and search out those who are still lost.

Chrysostom,

Yes, there are homosexuals who have come back to the church unfortunately most of the gays coming back into the church in the LA diocese, SF diocese and Orange diocese are actively gay and hoping and looking forward to the day that the Catholic Church will say it's okay to live a gay lifestyle. Cardinal Mahony is coming pretty close to giving gays the okay with the rainbow fish stunt and having every gay outreach under the sun except for the one that is actually approved by the Vatican, Courage.

Why is it politically correct to wine and dine and minister to gays but not to do the same for other sinning groups. What about the prostitutes, drug adicts, people who are contracepting, abortionists and Nambla members?

Chrysostom, I suggest you read some of the articles Deacon Eric Stoltz (LA diocese webmaster) has written to see the agenda that Mahony has up his stained Alb sleeve.

[Hammerbrecher]

Anne,

That is the motive behind every super lib bishop.. Woman Priests..
I have seen the same game plan in multiple diocese, so it is obvious that these guys have "meetings".

1. Create a vocations crisis - Stonewall any manly/orthodox vocations and only allow likeminded "men" in.
2. When the pool of priests is running dry, start puting women "pastoral admins" as "pastors" of parishes.
3. Put women "pastoral admins" at every parish
4. Have mostly girl alter servers.
5. Destroy CCD and have fembots and gays teaching "diversity" instead of Catechism.
6. Start the communion service army, especially for daily Mass and where their is a woman "pastor"
7. Have the eucharistic army of EMHC. aka 20 distributing host and chalice and have 2 of them at the fraction rite take the hosts out of the big bowl and put them in the 12 or so small bowls..

etc. etc.

[mark]

Deacon Eric Stotlz, the web designer and moving force behind gay ministry in the Archdiocese - - website here - is a gay man with an agenda. I have no doubt he also has plenty of dirt on many of the clergy in the LA Archdiocese. Dirt to spare, dirt that keeps him in power.

[Patrick]

Hammerbrecher,

I think we can safely say that there has been a general tendency to feminize the entire liturgy. The whole "tone" of the post-Vat II liturgy, in most places, has been feminized to some degree.

During Advent I saw priests traipse out in pink vestments while campfire girl style songs were played. Under such conditions, normal heterosexual males will not find the priesthood to be all that appealing. It is not unusual to see young guys nervously hang around the back of a church then bolt for the door before Mass ends. And, I have known young men who have dropped out of certain seminaries because they could no longer handle being in an environment consisting of a combination of heterodoxy and homosexuality.

There are good priests and bishops who try to resist these trends. However, I believe the post-Vat II liturgy, at this point, is beyond reform (at least in western countries...I don't know what goes on in Africa and Asia). I read a blog which quoted a bishop somewhere stating, something to the effect, that if the liturgy is not reformed everyone will be attending the TLM. I think he is a little late.

[Patrick]

I would like to add one more thing:

Hambrecher wrote, "Stonewall any manly/orthodox vocations and only allow likeminded "men" in." This is true. It was a well known fact that in the Archdiocese of L.A. the vocations director would probe to determine if a person interested in a vocation was too "rigid." Being "rigid" in this case means one is not gay friendly and adheres too closely to Church teaching.

[Ileigha]

Ah, one teeny, tiny, question here...

Why is this man Mahoney, who clearly espouses and promotes views contradictory to those of the Chruch, why is he still a priest? Worse still, he presents his "views" as IF they were the views and teachings of the Catholic Church and with a Cardinal's authority behind them no less! This, despite said views being, in many instances, in direct contradiction to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church!

Why on earth, is he still considered a Roman Catholic? Much less a priest? God forbid, a Cardinal?

What DOES a priest have to do in the American Church to get busted? I shudder to think,given this situation... And why does Rome permit it? Seems the Holy See would put a stop to such heresy, if the American Church refuses to deal with it...

Not covering our heads during mass, holding hands during the Our Father, raising our hands up and wagging them about in the air like wannabe Prods, women lectures and "alter girls" well, here ya go, now we've got "Rainbow Fish" from a Cardinal...

We all better bone up on the lyrics to Kumbya so's we can sing it with the priest and her family in the New-Age-Sorta-Kinda- Catholic-Church's touchy feely, feel-good, Sorta Mass.

Pray for the Church...

Lele

[A Simple Sinner]

Whatever Mahoney's motives were, more than a few people have benefited from this ministry

In the past few years I have become enamored with hearing about some of the amazing conversion stories that are occuring daily in the Catholic Church. Over 2,000 non-Catholic clergy from Anglicanism, Orthodoxy and the rest of the Protestant world have come into the Catholic Church in the past 20 years. More still are poised to join.

I am all for every effort being made to welcome people home, but you have to let them know where and what home is. Don't promise them a BBQ restaraunt if the place if French. Don't tell them they are seeing a play if it is really a rock concert. And don't try to ignore the inconvienant aspects of the faith to make it more attractive. That is not only rude false and a bit fraudulent, it is self-defeating. If you tell someone they can become Catholic without living a Catholic life... Well put a Roman cassock on the Ayatolah, and you still have an ayatolah. You just have one that is dressed funny.

What I would question more still is what signals do "rainbow fish" pins send out? The rainbow is inexoribly linked with gay-pride parades, flown above gay bars and bookstores and the like. It flies at the corner of San Francisco's Castro street, and go to any major metro area and you will know the "gayborhood" by the flags.

(20 years on it makes me laugh to think of my grandmother's collection of rainbow sun catchers in her kitchen window. Not knowing better, she rather liked rainbow anything.)

The point of this pin is NOT let's be clear to demonstrate solidarity with those Catholics who have same sex attraction and wish to live a chaste life. This pin demonstrates a solidarity with the whole lifestyle and host of sexual philosophies of the non-heterosexual world.

Lets be clear about something, homosexuality covers a whole host of non-heterosexual behaviors that are NOT uniform, filled with fetishes and sexualized desires for certain forms of treatment. To be delicate, I will not go into them.

There is a total incompatibility with a Catholic vision of sexuality - limited to married acts of love and sexuality that affirm God's partnership in creation. ANYTHING else, heterosexual, not hetersexual, masturbation, contraceptive, is just NOT part of that vision. It never has and never will be.

So the idea that something like this is good inasmuch as it brings some into the Catholic Church I challenge that on two counts: does it bring people in honestly and letting them know the truth of the Catholic faith? Does it possibly give other's still a false view that irreconcilable things have been reconciled?

[Ileigha]

Again I ask,

Why hasn't Rome intervened? Ideas? Does anyone have any thoughts about at what point they think Rome might intervene?

Good points from "A Simple Sinner" by the way, here here!

Lele

[chris]

>I have a question: How does wearing a rainbow fish pin help anyone? If I see someone wearing one, what should that lead me to think?

To answer your question, I believe the first thing any Christian should do with a question is pray, with the aid of Holy Scripture.

Now, I wish to appeal to the Blessed Mother to cover over any error in my response. I sincerely hope that we never degenerate to the point that we forget to turn to her humbly in our search for purity.

Christians throughout history have worn or displayed symbols that represent our common journey of faith. For example, people who wear Tau crosses recognize that the mission of St. Francis was uniquely tied with an experience of intense personal suffering, or crucifixion.

The much smaller number of people who wear rainbow fish pins find in this symbol a personal expression of their joy that they have a Savior, who knows what it is to suffer at the hands of many.

Behold the suffering Christ, as described in Isaiah 53:3-4 (NAB):

He was spurned and avoided by men, a man of suffering, accustomed to infirmity, One of those from whom men hide their faces, spurned, and we held him in no esteem. Yet it was our infirmities that he bore, our sufferings that he endured, While we thought of him as stricken, as one smitten by God and afflicted.

This suffering, infirmity and hatred is a common experience shared by people who identify with the homosexual community. The fish pin is a sign of transformation in progress, from intense suffering to hope. It is so easy to turn a blind eye to our own sins, our habitual sins, rather than taking these sins out into the open, to the Sacrament of Reconciliation and to our private prayer time and again for years.

Truly no one is a Christian who cannot acknowledge his own need for a Savior, a Christ like us in all ways except sin. I pray all those who read this post will be guided in their heart by the Spirit, especially through the guardianship of the Immaculate Mother, Mary. For it is only she who was not blinded by sin. Amen

[A grandmother]

As someone raised in the Catholic church my heart is breaking for the current state of God's church. I pray daily that before I die the Church in America will return to God, and the principals and standards will once more be enforced. Rainbow fish, priests doing whatever they want, 'Catholic' politians who count the teaching of the church as despenible for their political careers - I almost don't recognize my Church anymore.

[shakey_faith]

How about a pin for us who would like to enjoy internet porn. Hey, if a gay couple should be honored as Catholic members then why not us porn viewers. Do I have to view gay porn in order for the Church to honor my sin?

[shakey_faith]

Stop giving them money. I have stopped giving my parish money. I now give money directly to the poor when I travel to 3rd world countries for my job. Also, a few bucks to EWTN. Withholding money is not a backlash. It's a diversion of funds to people whom you know it won't misuse it.

[average]

You know I may not like the fact, either, that gays show themselves to be martyrs and that they have the tendency to want to shine the spotlite on themselves in thinking that they should be proud for being gay. I don't think that anyone who has got a bucketfull of troubles, whether it's gays or alchoholics for christ or what ever needs to boast about it. You're right.

But I don't think that hate and intolerance is going to solve anything either.

And to the question of why hasn't Rome done anything about it is that they may very well be steeped in difficulties with homosexuality themselves. Not easy to know.

It probably can't be easy to be a Catholic Priest and stay celibate too; sure they take that vow but, it's got to be tough.

average