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« Catholic Pentecostalism? | Main | From CNS - Traditionalists: Differences Still Remain Despite The Motu Proprio On The Tridentine Mass »

Saturday, July 07, 2007

Comments

A Simple Sinner

Lucky 07-07-07.

Thank you Jesus.

Thank you Pope Benedict.

Jeffersonranch

What a blessed time for the people. I hope they use it wisely.

Fr Charles Smith

Laudetur Jesus Christus! I am a priest who was in effect isolated and eventually drummed out of my own diocese for daring to ask for an indult to say the Traditional Latin Mass PRIVATELY in 1988! The Ecclesia Dei Commission to which were were to send all "applications" turned about face in its own instructions and forwarded all requests to the respective bishop ordinaries. In dioceses like mine, we were ear marked and swatted like flies. The instructions in the present moto proprio are clear and yet so were they under John Paul the II. Let's see what the bishops and Roman Curia think up to out-flank the Holy Father on this. As for me, I continue to say the Traditional Latin Mass privately, and secretly even in my darkst period and even though I am without a priestly home. Its beauty and reverence gives me comfort and I know that my constant prayer for the whole Church offered during the Mass is powerful. I say loudly and clearly....May God abundantly bless His Holiness Benedict the XVIth. For Him I will pray all the more fervently...a great leader has appeard amoung us! Finally one who has the spiritual good of Traditional Catholics close to His heart and mind! May God Bless Him!

CoffeeMugPhilosophy

-----------------------------------------------
"Benedict issued a document authorizing parish priests to celebrate the Tridentine Mass if a "stable group of faithful" requests it."
---------------------------------------------

hmmm, St Mary's by the Sea,Huntington Beach, ....stable?
There are pro's and con's revolving around that argument.

I find it very regretful!

Luis

Glory and Praise to Our God! As I was reading the articles of the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum I could almost hear church bells ringing through the land - many, I'm certain feel a sense of liberation. It is my hope that the generation of Catholics who are witnessing this historic time for our Church may come to realize the true beauty of the Traditional Liturgy which has been the sustainance of countless saints through the ages. Gloria Tibi Domine!

Brian Day

I've been thinking about St. Mary's by the Sea also. It will be interesting to see how Bishop Brown handles this one.

I will say an extra prayer for all Bishops that they will receive the MP as B16 intends.

DenverCatholic

"In parishes where a group of faithful attached to the previous liturgical tradition exists stably, let the pastor willingly accede to their requests for the celebration of the Holy Mass according to the rite of the Roman Missal published in 1962."

Bishop Brown has no say nor choice in the matter.

DenverCatholic

Is this enough to seal the breach for the SSPX?

They get the free exercise of their preferred mass, all they have to do is submit to Papal Authority.

carol

Well, the USCCB is at it already.
The link that is posted above to the document has "commentary" from the USCCB.

In one instance where the Pope had written:

"It is true that there have been exaggerations and at times social aspects unduly linked to the attitude of the faithful attached to the ancient Latin liturgical tradition. Your charity and pastoral prudence will be an incentive and guide for improving these."

The "commentary" by the USCCB (quoted below)leaves the word "unduly" out.

This changes the meaning of the words of the Holy Father and makes it read as though the lovers of the ancient rite actually DO have a nasty attitude - when in fact, the Holy Father is saying that they DO NOT. ("those nasty, uncharitable ancient tradition lovers need to be loved anyway" is the context of the USCCB document).

(from thier webpage - page 28 of the document)

9. What are the challenges for those attached to the preconciliar form?

The Holy Father notes certain “exaggerations and at times social aspects” linked to “ the attitude of the faithful
attached to the ancient Latin liturgical tradition.” For this reason he asks for “charity and pastoral prudence.” 38

Changing the meaning of the documents of the Church and the words of the Holy Father is nothing new for the illustriusly rebellious bishops of the USCCB)

I know, I know, we need to be grateful - but those USCCB bishops are just a disaster.

We need a no-spin bishop with a prime time TV show!!

DenverCatholic

We shall see how Archbishop Chaput handles this here in Denver. I have great faith that he will properly respond. Would that the others follow his lead.

oliver

The Holy Father is truly great for granting this universal indult of the Tridentine mass for the sake of the traditionalist Catholics. He's truly a shepherd reflective of the Good Shepherd who looks for the one lost sheep while leaving the ninety-nine so that the one lost be united with the ninety-nine. Now the traditionalist Cahtolics as the one lost sheep who can now have the extraordinary form of the Mass can truly be united again with the ninety-nine who have long been happy and sanctified with the ordinary form of the Mass. Welcome back to the fold!

DenverCatholic

You MUST read the letter the Pope sent explaining this to the Bishops.

THe Pope writes tot he Bishops:

In the first place, there is the fear that the document detracts from the authority of the Second Vatican Council, one of whose essential decisions ­ the liturgical reform ­ is being called into question.

This fear is unfounded. In this regard, it must first be said that the Missal published by Paul VI and then republished in two subsequent editions by John Paul II, obviously is and continues to be the normal Form the Forma ordinaria ­ of the Eucharistic Liturgy. The last version of the Missale Romanum prior to the Council, which was published with the authority of Pope John XXIII in 1962 and used during the Council, will now be able to be used as a Forma extraordinaria of the liturgical celebration. It is not appropriate to speak of these two versions of the Roman Missal as if they were "two Rites". Rather, it is a matter of a twofold use of one and the same rite.

As for the use of the 1962 Missale as a Forma extraordinaria of the liturgy of the Mass, I would like to draw attention to the fact that this Missal was never juridically abrogated and, consequently, in principle, was always permitted.

(Referring to the 1970 Vatican-II Mass)

"Many people who clearly accepted the binding character of the Second Vatican Council, and were faithful to the Pope and the Bishops, nonetheless also desired to recover the form of the sacred liturgy that was dear to them. This occurred above all because in many places celebrations were not faithful to the prescriptions of the new Missal, but the latter actually was understood as authorizing or even requiring creativity, which frequently led to deformations of the liturgy which were hard to bear. I am speaking from experience, since I too lived through that period with all its hopes and its confusion. And I have seen how arbitrary deformations of the liturgy caused deep pain to individuals totally rooted in the faith of the Church. "

Immediately after the Second Vatican Council it was presumed that requests for the use of the 1962 Missal would be limited to the older generation which had grown up with it, but in the meantime it has clearly been demonstrated that young persons too have discovered this liturgical form, felt its attraction and found in it a form of encounter with the Mystery of the Most Holy Eucharist, particularly suited to them. Thus the need has arisen for a clearer juridical regulation which had not been foreseen at the time of the 1988 Motu Proprio. The present Norms are also meant to free Bishops from constantly having to evaluate anew how they are to respond to various situations.

There is no contradiction between the two editions of the Roman Missal. In the history of the liturgy there is growth and progress, but no rupture. What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful. It behooves all of us to preserve the riches which have developed in the Church's faith and prayer, and to give them their proper place.

WOW. Now lets pray Pope Benedict XVI, the Restorer, will go after liturgical abuses in the new form mass. No more cowbells, no more old hippies with tambourines, no more costumed dancers, PLEASE!

Jude

I wonder if Cardinal Mahony will allow the classical use of the Mass in his cathedral.

Patrick

Alleluia! Alleluia!

I have been waiting for this document for years, and I am happy that it has finally arrived.

However, I don't expect changes in this small town anytime soon. In big cities it will probably lead to more TLMs. The bishop doesn't even need to know that a TLM is on the Mass schedule.

If this had been in effect several years ago, it could have been used to save the TLM at St. Mary's by the Sea.

I hope Pope Benedict lives well into his 100s with a healthy body and mind. I wonder what is next on his agenda.

carlos

Summorum Pontificum is well-written yet easy for the layman to understand. It seems that the document places the burden on the bishop to state why the TLM would be denied to a group of the laity. Even more importantly, an appeal from the bishop's decision would go to the Ecclesia Dei Commission.

Chuck Griffin

In this weeks St. Mary's news bulletin, it was hinted the parish is not making enough money, and it may close its doors. Heck we all knew this was part of Brown's plan, and certainly not news to those of us who attend St. Mary's. Perhaps the return of the Tridentine High Mass could save St. Mary's from closing its doors. But I doubt it, because I think Brown was to sell that property for big bucks to pay for his castle he's going to build.

As we all know Father Johnson's weekly Tridentine Mass was a thorn in Bishop Brown's side as long as Rev. Johnson was alive. This same hypocrite [Brown] was the one who pulled up the 'Lady' for kneeling, and at this same hypocrite who attended Rev. Johnson's funeral Mass, was kneeling at the Tridentine High Mass held for Rev. Johnson. Talk about the talk that went on that day seeing the very man who was against kneeling and against the Tridentine High Mass honoring Rev. Johnson.

In the "Pastor's Corner" column of the St. Mary's by the Sea bulletin this weekend, the financial condition of the parish is bemoaned and it is hinted that the church may have to be closed. Everyone realizes that the parish runs a deficit of $1,000 or more each month because of self-inflicted wounds. It has been Bishop Tod Brown and his appointee, administrator Fr. Martin Tran, who have driven away the faithful, stanched the flow of money into the collection basket and unleashed the torrents of red ink. They did this by discontinuing the weekly Tridentine Mass, militating against all that was holy and reverent in the parish and tirelessly promoting what is modern, sophomoric and banal. Being at odds with Rome was no obstacle, nor was intimidating and threatening little old ladies with going to hell for kneeling. They even attempted to boot out a good and holy priest, 80-year-old Fr. Eamon Mackin, ostensibly for lack of money, at the same time as they were spending about as much as Fr. Mackin lives on to pay unnecessary cantors for some Masses. You hardly need a cantor if there is no Mass, and Fr. Mackin was celebrating daily Masses. At that time, it was decided to cut one daily Mass, giving congregants one less reason to go to St. Mary's. Bishop Brown overwhelmingly bears the most responsibility, but Fr. Tran, who was ever eager to curry episcopal favor, followed orders with visible relish. While I have sympathy for Fr. Tran, and I wish to be as charitable as I can be, he has a conscience, and the Nuremberg defense only works up to a point. The parish and the diocese were subjected to international notoriety and ridicule as a result of Bishop Brown's policies and Fr. Tran's servility. Now the parish is in a fine financial mess. But as God so often does, He brings good out of a bad situation. From Rome yesterday a possible solution has issued forth from the hand of our wonderful Holy Father, Pope Benedict. The Tridentine Mass can be restored now at St. Mary's and the church coffers have chance to recover. I've heard that Fr. Tran is even qualified to celebrate the TLM. The parish leadership has a chance to return the parish now, like a prodigal son, to a more holy place -- more like where it was before the saintly, late Fr. Daniel Johnson retired. God gives us free will and lots of opportunities. The wild card could be our bishop's strategems. This is a man widely known for his pettiness and vindictiveness. I expect a classic hissing from hell because in the waning days of his episcopate -- he is nearing retirement -- Rome has undercut his ability to be arbitrary and inflict great hurt by killing off the Tridentine Mass. In fact, my reading of Pope Benedict's documents suggests the authority to kill off the Tridentine Mass never was there. Brown may have other schemes and tricks up his sleeve, not least of which may be this: St. Mary's by the Sea sits on an expensive piece of real estate just a couple of blocks from the blue Pacific in Huntington Beach. Many of us have long suspected that the ultimate goal, after the retirement of the good Fr. Johnson, was to close the parish and sell the property. The proceeds would go toward -- who knows? -- his "Tod Mahal" in Santa Ana (the proposed new cathedral), more homes in gated communities for favored, like-minded, partying priests, more first-class travel for the bishop himself or perhaps some excellent vintages for his wine cellar and salaries for his five-star chefs. Of course, he wouldn't simply close the parish and openly admit that filthy lucre is his goal. He would slither in, slowly, tasting the air with quick licks of his forked tongue, gradually enveloping the parish and then tightening his coils. He would try to appear to be a friend, although with decidedly mixed success in that area, even somberly attending Fr. Johnson's funeral. In the end, he would squeeze the life out of the parish, and be able to claim that the parish did it to itself. It's what is called deniability. After all, if the people won't contribute to the collection basket, they don't deserve to keep their parish. He'll tsk-tsk and cluck his tongue, but you'll know that he has achieved the goal he has always intended, and is laughing all the way to the bank. A parish like St. Mary's was in its heyday is always an affront and an embarrassment to a modernist bishop like Tod Brown.

Patrick

I found this on the EWTN website:

THE WORLD OVER LIVE SPECIAL:
ANALYSIS OF MOTU PROPIO: SUMMORUM PONTIFICUM
Host Raymond Arroyo will discuss the newly- released papal document by Pope Benedict XVI widening use of the 1962 Roman Missal.
Guest include:
Most Rev. Fabian Bruskewitz, Bishop of Lincoln, Nebraska
Monsignor James Moroney, Executive Director of the USCCB Secretariat for the Liturgy
Fr. Kenneth Baker, SJ, Editor of Homiletic & Pastoral Review
Most Rev. Thomas G. Doran, Bishop of Rockford, Illinois
Fr. George Gabet, FSSP, North American District Superior of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter
July 9, 9 PM Live
July 13, 8 PM Encore

You can listen on your computer.

Patrick

I think the times given are EST. So, 9PM tomorrow would be 6PM Pacific. I am anticipating the words of the UCSSB liturgy guy with some trepidation.

DenverCatholic

We have an FSSP parish in our Archdiocese.

Good men - good priests. And now they will be in great demand across the region as teachers and substitutes, because they are the only ones currently using TLM daily.

joanne

A time to rejoice and be thankful, I think.
Here is some good new from our Providence Journal this morning:

PROVIDENCE — As pastor of Holy Name Church on the East Side, the Rev. Joseph Santos admits that he is starting to feel nervous.

After years of advocating for more widespread use of the traditional Latin Mass, which has been offered at Holy Name with the express permission of a series of bishops going back to the Most Rev. Louis E. Gelineau, the priest is about to see his dream fulfilled.
.... Time will tell, but Father Santos says he estimates there are 30 priests in Rhode Island alone who have expressed an interest in bringing the old liturgy to a younger generation who never had the opportunity to experience the old Mass in all its splendor. The old Mass is not simply the present-day Mass recited in Latin. It is more elaborate in both words and choreography.

“There are about 20 priests who have asked me to teach it to them, and I think I’m going to get them all together for classes. I find the most interest among our younger priests, which is remarkable because most priests today don’t even get Latin when they go to seminary.”


A very positive article--nothing about negative reactions, despite the liberal perspective of the Journal. For the whole article, see:

www.projo.com
The title of the article is "Latin Spoken Here"

Kenneth

Now, I know it seems unlikely but if the Tridentine Mass eventually becomes so popular that there is no real demand for the Novus Ordo, would there be trouble about denying the new Mass's holiness? What if the extraordinary really became the ordinary? Not by Papal enforcement, but naturally. >_> (very wishful thinking, I know)

DenverCatholic

Kenneth, the Pope was VERY specific in saying the Novus mass is valid - and is the normal form. And that anyone rejecting EITHER of the masses is not in obedience to the Magesterium of the Church and Papal Authority on this teaching.

They are both valid, and must both be accepted. You can choose which you prefer, but you cannot claim either of them as invalid. End of discussion (per the Pope).

In my opinion, the Novus mass has its place, especially where the vernacular is very important, like missionary duty, or amongst insufficiently catechized populaces. I consider it the fertile ground on which the Tridentine mass will grow.

After all, one does not start off going straight to a full dresser Harley. You generally need some time with a bicycle until you develop the basic skills needed to handle the full vehicle. Both will get you to the destination, but the Harley is faster and more elegant - and will be the preferrred mode once you learn it well enough.

Now, the next step I'm hoping for is some reform of the liturgical language in the Novus mass: Start with my pet peeve from the current ECEL/USCCB approved translation of the creed:

"All things seen and unseen"

Bah! If I climb under a table I am unseen! I have a feeling thats not what is meant.
Lets go back closer to the Latin -

"All things Visible and Invisible"

Thats better.

oliver

I think we have to be realistic. Let's have a worldwide picture of things about the TLM. Statistics have shown that at most there are only about 800,000 who are for it mostly here in the U.S., including the schismatic members of the SSPX. Compare this figure of the more than a billion Catholics around the world especially in the growing numbers in Africa and Asia who mostly see no need of the TLM because they have embraced Catholicism with the Novus Ordo mass and have further deepened their faith through the inculturation of the liturgy. At most the TLM lovers can be compared to the one lost sheep sought after by our Holy Father Benedict XVI by and through this motu proprio. In a way it is his shepherding leadership that he is allowing this universal indult of the TLM to bring back the one lost sheep to the ninety-nine. So let's keep this in mind in all our discussions here especially when we watch or listen to the EWTN program on this. It is a fallacy when the one thinks it is the ninety-nine.

carlos

oliver, I agree that the number of TLM attendees in the US is small in comparison to the total "Catholic" population. I would argue, however, that too many Novus Ordo liturgies in the US are banal and do not evoke the mystery and grandeur that should be present at the Mass. The Mass of Blessed John XXIII may be what is necessary, then, to provide what is already missing.

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