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Thursday, August 09, 2007

Comments

Joey

While there haven't been as many visionaries and locutionists around today as there were from the 40's to the 80's there is I believe an organization that promotes and books venues usually in parish churches for them. Over the years I have interpreted such prophecies by evaluating them: Is what is being reported that the Blessed Mother or Jesus said in agreement with our faith, beliefs, practices and Tradition; is it in keeping with our biblical interpretation; does the Magisterium approve; and is it reasonable. I grew up with the devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary. And, personally, I have problems with the devotion to the polish devotion to the Divine Mercy and JPII's promotion of Divine Mercy Sunday as if the Holy Triduum and Easter Sunday don't have any effect on the Christian person! What!!! Anyway, I do pray the Divine Mercy chaplet, it's a great prayer along with the Rosary.

a priest

I have been to Garabandal. What happened was definately supernatural - weather from God or not, that is the question. I find the messages in complete conformity with the Catholic Faith. However, Garabandal was never condenmed - priests were forbidden to celebrate the sacraments there or even go. The last bishop, I can't remember his name, he died about a year or so ago, lifted this ban and give faculties to all priests who visit. The Church will never make a final judgement until the fulfillment of the promised warning and miracle - this in itself will proove the veracity of the apparitions, if it ever happens. My experience was beautiful. We spent two hours each day in Adoration, I heard confession the whole time.

joanne

I think the messages and the focus are very important when considering the source, even if there is intervention that is questionable. Certainly, the devil would not promote love for the Eucharist, prayers for priests, and obedience to the Church? What is troubling about this apparition is the same disturbing element that permeates personal revelations and most mystical experiences--the uncertain nature of some of the apparent supernatural "gifts."
For every visionary and mystic, no matter how confident, there must be some awful mental turmoil. But in this case, because obedience to he Church is stressed, I assume that the visionaries submitted their experiences to the Church. I would hope that they are, as a result, blameless if they have been duped in any way. After all, God is just, tender and merciful.
Isn't safe to assume also that the warning against prophets whose prophecies do not occur is a warning against intentionally false prophets?

joanne

"Frequently the girls were forced with their heads tilted backwards in a position that appeared abnormal and uncomfortable. During the visions the girls were inspired (or compelled) to perform elaborately embellished versions of the Sign of the Cross that might be construed as a mockery of this simple and ancient act prayer. You may also notice that the the crucifix is not held upright by one of the visionaries during the video, but almost always at odd angles."
Thomistic, in those videos we saw similar things, but saw them differently. I saw children who forgot themselves and were lost in devotion to Jesus and our Blessed Mother. (would a possessed person continually kiss the Cross and offer it to others to kiss?)
The head positions and signs of the Cross that were unfamiliar to you are known to me. Similar things have happened to me while praying during Mass. Unlike those girls, however, I was not seeing visions, nor was I innocent enough not to ask the Lord to please not knock my head completely off! (I think the sharp nudge of the head has to do with submission and note that wherever the visionaries made the sign, it was always the Cross that was signed)
If those visionaries are beset w/ demons, I must have encountered similar demons, so pray for me. But I see or sense nothing demonic in what the footage shows.Rather, I see girls who are overcome by Love. That doesn't mean they are holy, but it means they have been gifted by overwhelming experiences of God's majesty and love, as well as being messengers of that same love.

The Catholic Knight

Does Satan drive out Satan? I just can't imagine that the devil would do anything that would effectively bring an entire town to greater faith in Christ. I honestly don't know what was going on with these children, but I do know that Satan isn't going to do anything that will strengthen people's faith in Christ and the Church. He certainly isn't going to tell people to repent of their sins and make sacrifices.

It would also be interesting to know if the prophecies associated with these "visions" are really as closely associated with them as we've been led to believe. Could they have been planted by unbelievers as a method of sabotage? I don't know, but it merits investigation.

Personally, I don't know what was going on with these children. I will say this. If these episodes did not come from heaven, than I think we can safely say they didn't come from hell either. Satan does not cast out Satan. If not from heaven or hell, than where from? Perhaps it was all an elaborate hoax, or the product of some very skillful imagination from these children.

Patrick

Thomistic, you provided a good explanation of the difference between the supernatural and the preternatural. Also, I agree that one must exercise extreme caution with such phenomena. Those who have experienced preternatural phenomena know that it is best to steer clear of such things. Even some of those who possess "gifts" wish they didn't have them. What happens on the altar, at Mass, is miracle enough.

Luis

I will never accept that because of inconsistancies in the events at Garabandal there is a demonic influence. Satan would not allow Conchita to receive the sacred host and in doing so promote and emphasize the true presence of our Lord in the Eucharist. Look beyond the inconsistancies and you will find a truly prophetic message: "Many priests and bishops and cardinals are treading the way of perdition and there will be an indifference towards the Eucharist". Have we not seen this in our time? Why would Satan, the father of all lies be so truthful and concerned for the horrible events we have all witnessed? Pedophilia among the clergy, tabernacles removed from main altars and place in "chapels" which are not even visible to the faithful upon entering a church. Corrections are being made now for the errors of the clergy in the decades after Vatican II (the time of the Garabandal messages). Marian apparitions are known for their accuracy and consistancy with Catholic doctrine and this does present a serious problem with the events of Garabandal - just don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

A Simple Sinner

"Satan would not allow Conchita to receive the sacred host and in doing so promote and emphasize the true presence of our Lord in the Eucharist."

On this we are agreed...

But I am concerned about recognizing this "invisible communion from the angels"

Essentially we are hearing:
"Don't bring objects blessed by priests, I'll do it. Don't worry, I will get you invisble communion from angels."

Why is it so difficult to believe the Devil would have a plan for the pious? Perhaps it is pride... that the Evil One only is tempting the irreligous....

carlos

The Church will never make a final judgement until the fulfillment of the promised warning and miracle - this in itself will proove the veracity of the apparitions, if it ever happens.

As stated in the article, several of the locutions have been logically disproven. The miracle was supposed to be a "visible supernatural sign will remain in sight until the end of time." Such a miracle would have naturally been written and reported about. However, there is nothing in the historical record to show that it has yet occurred. The locutions stated that St. Padre Pio and Pope John Paul II would live to see the miracle, but both have died without the miracle occurring. Finally, Pope Benedict XVI was chosen as the fourth successor to Blessed John XIII; one locution held that Pope John Paul II would be the last Pontiff.

joanne

It seems to me that no good ever comes out of judging apparitions too closely beyond what the Church has already stated. To pray, to seek forgiveness, to do penance, to fast-all these are good reminders and necessary actions. And aside from all the hoopla (excuse the word) we know what to do and what is important.
In addition, we know that the devil attempts to pervert all good, and so I think it is best to take what we know to be good and praise and thank the Lord for it while not spending too much energy on what the Church is not against. Our plate is heaped high with blessings and our work is always before us.
Blessed be God in His angels and in His saints!

Patrick

Why not just wait for the Church to make a definitive judgement?

And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light. 2 Corinthians 11:14

Jimbo

It's all so strange. Right when I begin to think that it all sounds pretty compelling, something bizarre seems to conflict with it and cast doubt.

I doubt if the predictions about JPII seeing the fulfillment of this message came at the time that the visions were happening. How could they...he wasn't around yet.

I have no idea what is going on. I'm willing to wait, perhaps all my life, and see. I wonder, however, if one of the visionaries might be changing things, or embellishing things, since the original visions. This would keep the visions inviolate, and yet explain some of the crazier statements that seem to invalidate the whole thing.

I guess we'll see. I think the things covered in the visions were to occur before they die, so I suppose we'll know in another 20-30 years one way or the other.

A Simple Sinner

You know, I was born about ten years after these visions started, went the first 25 years of my life without ever having heard of them, and then haven't heard about them for at least 4 years...

People can get so wrapped up in these sorts of "messages" but, even if true, it is all just private revelation.

Our Lady will do, what Our Lady will do - certainly the fruit of Fatima was to get many souls to pray the rosary.

So, when in doubt about the veracity of an apparition, don't bother with it. Pray your rosary, lead a good and holy Catholic life with the frequent use of confession and reception of Communion, live according to the teachings of the Church, and you can be certain you WILL be pleasing Our Lady.

joanne

Just so, Simple Sinner. My words were getting tangled with my thoughts, but you expressed clearly what I was muddling. Thank you.

Rick Gibson

I read what the local bishop said. He did not say that these were false visions. He said that they had not been proven to be supernatural.

I think we need to remember that the organized Church needs to be disciplined in its response to these matters. If it is not, there is a danger of the discipline and the hierarchy of the Church being broken down by free-lance zealots, who might take the Church in many different and disruptive directions.

I also think that it is not helpful to our faith to get too caught up in the details of prophecy. We should remember the Bible teaching on this. No one knows when Christ is coming again. We can get lead astray by thinking that we know the future.

At the same time, however, we should not be closed to the workings of the Holy Spirit. Certainly, this story sounds like something very real happened to a number of children, which is hard to understand as anything other than a genuine appearance of Mary. Certainly, leaving aside the details of the prophecies, the general direction of the teachings these children received is pious and proper.

I do not think we can judge the specifics of this. I think, however, that we should always remain open to the idea that Our Lady will speak to us in these ways. We will certainly be in deep trouble if we are not willing to listen to her when she speaks to us like this.

CoffeeMugPhilosophy

two words: Joey Lomagino

http://www.garabandal.us/workers.html

he is presently in his late 70's and is an intricate part of Garbandal. He has been promised a curing of his blindness. He was also tied in with Padre Pio. Having read both sides pro and con about Garbandal, I am still open minded, with the thought that a Bishops Finding of 'nothing supernatural' is not a condemnation and will not preclude something true from
happening.

The best 'con' website concerning Garbandal is www.unitypublishing.com
Sabato is good with his methodology of finding fault
with visions/visionaries. However, he may be a bit too cynical, then again maybe not.

Thomistic

Arguments Against The Heavenly Character Of The Visions At Garabandal:

All eight bishops of Santander have, from 1961 up to now, supported by the Holy See in Rome, publicly declared that there is no evidence that supernatural apparitions have taken place in Garabandal.

False Prophesies:

A locution told the children that Pope Paul VI would live to see the miracle. This is problematic, because Pope Paul VI entered eternity on August 6, 1978.

The “Virgin” promised that St. Padre Pio would witness the miracle. St. Padre Pio entered eternity on September 23, 1968.

One of the locutions received by the children included the prediction that there would be only three more popes until "the end of the times." Pope John XXIII was the pope at that time. Since then, we have had Popes Paul VI and Pope John Paul I and Pope John Paul II.

Since Pope John Paul II was Pope John XXIII's third successor, Pope John Paul II, according to the prophecies associated with the visions at Garabandal, should have been the last pope. This is problematic, because Pope John Paul II entered eternity on April 2, 2005, there has been no warning and no miracle, and Pope Benedict XVI has been validly elected by the conclave of cardinals and has been the reigning pontiff since April 19, 2005.

Conchita and the rest of the children signed a document with the bishop agreeing with the findings of the Church and promising never to promote the apparitions again. Does that sound like the Church is open to the possibility that these visions are from heaven? The visionaries have lived up to this signed document, but the promoters have not.

All of the children have retracted all belief in the miracles.

Conchita said the pope (at that time Paul VI) as well as Padre Pio would still see the miracle, both have been dead for a long time.

In Conchita's diary one can read (p.164 Dutch edition) that Paul VI knew the date of the great Miracle.

On 04/13/1995 almost 20,000 pilgrims were present at Garabandal. Many from the USA who had paid $2000 American dollars for their air-tickets. Once more the date was false.

Prof. Rutten, the retired economist from the Netherlands, now foretells this miracle is going to happen on 11/04/2002. This man was just as sure of the fact that the pope would proclaim the fifth Marian Dogma (via Amsterdam) on 05/31/2001.

According to Conchita, Pope John Paul II is the last pope on earth. Many other false seers suggest the next pope might well be the Anti-Christ. As a result, many are turned against the local bishop, because the latter does not recognize the apparitions. They claim he is a bad bishop and without faith.

The leader of the Garabandal center in the Netherlands, Mr. Wim L., said during the Dutch TV Program, Crosspoint on 05/20/01 that he himself did not know if Garabandal came from Satan or from God.

In the same program they showed one of the Van der Maazen brothers, who keeps a souvenir-shop in Garabandal. The other brother who thought he would be cured on the day of the miracle, has already died.

Barry Hanratty of the Garabandal center in New York had discovered that the Van der Maazen brothers cheated with the sale of medals containing little pieces of the so-called missal of Jacinta or Loli. The text on the little pieces appears to be a Dutch text!

In 1966 Conchita wanted to enter the Carmelite Convent in Pamplona. "Jesus" told her to go back to the world. In 1973 she married the much older Patrick Keena, who was divorced from his first wife, whom he had previously married in a civil ceremony. Reportedly, none of Conchita's family were present at her wedding.

The same main seer, Conchita, made a museum of her house in Garabandal. She has since sold that house and owns a house in New York and a flat in Fatima as well. Compare that with St. Bernadette in Lourdes.

Conchita reportedly admitted to Father J. Pelletier that she herself had stolen the Host from the tabernacle for the so-called mystical communion.

Just before the visions in Garabandal the four seers had stolen apples. The first vision reportedly began when the girls decided to steal some apples from a schoolteacher's tree. An unseen force reportedly forced the girls to their knees. In this first apparition they saw what appeared to be a holy angel.

Conchita was often caught in contradictions.

Strange claims:

Many of the visions reportedly involved the girls having conversations with the “Lady” about frivolous things, such as how the “Lady” liked their clothing.

The children were reportedly “given” the “Child Jesus” to pass around to one another in a manner very much like the way one would see children handling a toy doll. The children also claim to have touched the “Virgin” many times. However, they acknowledged that they could not feel anything during these occasions.

After seeing the children apparently passing some unseen object around, which was later said to be the Infant Jesus, people asked the girls if they actually touched the Infant Jesus.

The girls replied, “No, you cannot touch either the Blessed Mother or the Infant.”

“But how can this be?” the people asked.

The girls explained, “Well, you see what you hold, but you feel nothing; you feel no weight. If you stretch your hand to touch Our Lady, your hand can go no further because Our Lady is there, but you feel nothing.”

The girls reportedly claimed that they gave sweets to the Infant Jesus.

The “Virgin” asked that the girls not bring blessed sacramentals [rosaries, crucifixes, etc.], because she wanted to bless these objects herself. The vision is reported to have blessed and kisses hundreds of objects. This is troubling for two reasons: first, because only blessed sacramentals affect the devil and fallen angels; second, the Blessed Virgin Mary is not a priest and therefore she cannot confer a priestly blessing.

Conchita reportedly said the Blessed Mother played hide and seek with her.

The Blessed Virgin is also said to have helped find shoes which had been lost by some of the pilgrims.

The Blessed Mother was said to have told the children that she perfumed the brushes of her slippers.

Some Authoritative Statements From the Church On The Alleged Visions At Garabandal:

Cardinal Seper, Prefect of the congregation For the Sacred Doctrine Of the Faith wrote this letter to Archbishop Philip M. Hannan of New Orleans, Louisiana on April 21, 1970:

"This office has received you letter of April 1970 in which you expressed justifiable apprehension about the diffusion of the Garabandal movement in your Archdiocese and in which you asked for clear and reliable guidelines from the Holy See for dealing with this phenomenon.

"The Holy See share your perception about the manifest and increasing confusion due to the diffusion of this movement among the faithful and desires with this letter to clarify its position on the matter.

"This Sacred Congregation despite requests form various Bishops and faithful has always refused to define the supernatural character of the events of Garabandal. After the definitive negative judgment issued by the Curia of Santander this Sacred Congregation, after attentive examination of the proceedings forwarded to this office has often praised the prudence that characterized the method followed in the examination but has still decided to leave direct responsibility for the matter to the local Ordinary.

"The Holy see has always held that the conclusions and dispositions of the Bishop of Santander were sufficiently secure guidelines for the Christian people and indications for the Bishops to order to dissuade people from participating in pilgrimages and other acts of devotion that are based on claims connected with or founded on the presumed apparitions and messages of Garabandal. On March 10, 1996; this Sacred Congregation wrote a letter to this effect to the Bishop of Santander who had also asked for a more explicit declaration of the Holy See to the matter.

"However promoters of the Garabandal movement have tried to minimize the decisions and the jurisdiction of the Bishop of Santander. This Sacred Congregation wants it to be clearly understood that the Bishop of Santander has been and continues to be the only one with complete jurisdiction in this matter and the Holy See has no intention of examining this question any further, since it holds that the examinations already carried out are sufficient as well as are the official declarations of the Bishop of Santander. There is no truth to the statement that the Holy See has named an Official Papal Private Investigator of Garabandal and affirmations attributed to the anonymous personage to the extent that the verification of the Garabandal apparitions lies completely in the hands of the Holy Father Pope Paul VI and other such expressions that aim at undermining the authority of the decisions of the Bishop of Santander are completely unfounded.

"In order to reply to certain doubts that you expressed in your letter this Sacred Congregation wishes to assert: that the Holy See has never approved even indirectly the Garabandal movement, that it has never encouraged or blessed Garabandal promoters or centers. Rather the Holy See deplores that fact that certain persons and Institutions persist in formatting the movement in obvious contradiction with the dispositions of ecclesiastical authority and thus disseminate confusion among the people especially among the simple and defenseless.

"From what has been said so far you will easily realize that though this Sacred Congregation certainly agrees with the contents of the note of May 10, 1969 (as published in various countries and especially in the French magazine, La Documentation Catholique, September 21, 1966, n:1547 p. 821) It must say that it is inexact to attribute the part of the text that deals with the lack of supernatural character of the events of Garabandal of the Sacred Congregation which has always striven to abstain from any direct declaration on the question precisely because it did not consider it necessary to do so after the clear and express decisions of the Bishop of Santander. This is the genuine meaning of the letter written on January 21, 1970 by the Most Reverend Paul Phillippe, Secretary of this Sacred Congregation to the editor in chief of La Documentation Catholique.

"In order to contribute further to your pastoral action in this matter, this office is enclosing other essential documents already published in other countries such as Spain: The two official notices of the Bishop of Santander, two letters of the Sacred Congregation to the same Bishop and a letter to the Apostolic Delegate to Mexico. This office hopes in this letter to have clarified a question that concerns not just your Archdiocese but also other dioceses.

"With sentiments of deepest esteem and cordial respect

"I am devotedly yours

signed:

"Francis Cardinal Seper Prefect

also signed:

"Paul Philippe , Secretary"

On October 11, 1996 the new bishop, Jose Vilaplana, again placed his prohibition on the alleged apparitions and said it is final.

"Some people have been coming directly to the Diocese of Santander (Spain) asking about the alleged apparitions of Garabandal and especially for the answer about the position of the hierarchy of the Church concerning these apparitions.

I need to communicate that:

All the bishops of the diocese since 1961 through 1970 agreed that there was no supernatural validity for the apparitions.

In the month of December of 1977 Bishop Dal Val of Santander, in union with his predecessors, stated that in the six years of being bishop of Santander there were no new phenomena.

The same bishop, Dal Val, let a few years go by to allow the confusion or fanaticism to settle down, and then he initiated a commission to examine the apparitions in more depth. The conclusion of the commission agreed with the findings of the previous bishops. That there was no supernatural validity to such apparitions.

At the time of the conclusions of the study, in 1991, I was installed bishop in the diocese. So during my visit to Rome, as limina visit which happened in the same year, I presented to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith the study and I asked for pastoral direction concerning this case.

On Nov. 28, 1992, the Congregation sent me an answer saying that after examining the documentation, there was no need for direct intervention (by the Vatican) to take away the jurisdiction of the ordinary bishop of Santander in this case. Such a right belongs to the ordinary. Previous declarations of the Holy See agree in this finding. In the same letter they suggested that if I find it necessary to publish a declaration, that I reconfirm that there was no supernatural validity in the alleged apparitions, and this will make a unanimous position with my predecessors.

Given that the declarations of my predecessors who studied the case have been clear and unanimous, I don’t find it necessary to have a new public declaration that would raise notoriety about something which happened so long ago. However, I find it necessary to rewrite this report as a direct answer to the people who ask for direction concerning this question, which is now final: I agree with [and] I accept the decision of my predecessors and the direction of the Holy See.

In reference to the Eucharistic celebration in Garabandal, following the decision of my predecessors, I ruled that Masses can be celebrated only in the parish church and there will be no references to the alleged apparitions and visiting priests who want to say Mass must have approval from the pastor, who has my authorization. It’s my wish that this information is helpful to you.

My regards in Christ,

Jose Vilaplana

Bishop of Santander

Oct. 11, 1996

Pax,

Thomistic

Thomistic

As for claims that the messages at Garabandal could not have come from the devil...

Are people not aware that Satan can quote Sacred Scripture and did so when tempting Our Lord in the desert?

Listen to the words of Christ to Josefa Menendez. (Page 72, The Way of Divine Love, Tan Books and Publishers, Inc.)

‘Know for certain that if I ask you one thing and your Mother (Superior) asks another, I prefer you to obey her rather than Me." And on Page 51, "I trust in you fidelity and obedience to Myself and to Reverend Mother, WHO REPRESENTS ME." Page 99, "--- You must first submit to the will of your Superior, even before you do what I, Myself, ask you." Taking Christ at His word, Josefa said this to Christ the next time He appeared to her. "If you are really He, whom I believe You to be, Lord, deign not to take offense if I am made to ask leave every time, before listening to You and following You."

Christ answered, "I am not offended, on the contrary, I want you always to obey, and I, Myself, will obey."

Words of discernment from Our Lady taught Sister Josefa how to know whether an apparition was of God or of Satan, because not only Christ and Mary were appearing to her, but Satan was also appearing to her as Christ or Mary, and Sister Josefa could not tell the difference. (Page 87)

"My daughter, I will give you a lesson of VERY GREAT IMPORTANCE. The devil is like a mad dog, but he is chained, that is to say, his liberty is curtailed. He can, therefore, only seize and devour his prey if you venture to near him, and that is why his usual tactics are to make himself appear as a lamb. The soul does not realize this, and draws nearer and nearer, only to discover his malice when in his clutches. When he seems far away, do not relax your vigilance, child. His footsteps are padded and silent, that he may take you unawares."

(Page 98) "Pay no attention to the artifice of the devil, who tries to persuade you that the confidence you have in you Mother (superior) subtracts something from your tenderness for Jesus. If he is able to master you in this matter, he will have gained everything."

(Page 108) "Listen, Josefa, now is the time to SUBMIT YOUR JUDGMENT TO OBEDIENCE, and so you will be expiating the pride of that soul [a soul Josefa was trying to convert].

(Page 60) "My child, never be afraid of suffering or of sacrifice. Such are Gods ways. If you are to come out victoriously from the assaults of the devil, PAY GREAT ATTENTION TO TWO THINGS: First, HUMBLE YOURSELF, for you are nothing and deserve nothing. Everything comes to you as a grace from God. Second, when you feel lonely and given up to temptation, when your soul is cold and you have no courage to go on, do not give up prayer. Pray humbly and confidently, and GO AT ONCE TO SEEK GUIDANCE FROM HER WHO GOD HAS GIVEN YOU FOR THAT PURPOSE. BELIEVE ME, CHILD, IF YOU DO THIS, YOU WILL MAKE NO MISTAKES."

Satan appeared often to Josefa as Christ or Mary, she could not tell by looking or talking who it was, so she asked the vision to repeat after her the Divine Praises, and her vow of obedience and virginity, Jesus, Himself, His Immaculate Mother, and Saint Madeleine Sophie [who also appeared to her], all repeated after her. (Page 129) "But the Devil with his polluted lips was never able to utter such words of praise and benediction, for he can no longer love. When unmasked thus, his furious violence was redoubled."

Compare the obedience of Sister Josefa to that of the promoters of Garabandal.

Since the prophecies at Garabandal and associated with Garabandal have proven false, they can't have come from God, The Blessed Virgin, or holy angels, who cannot sin and therefore would not deceive people.

Sacred Scripture Teaches:

But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.' And if you say in your heart, `How may we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?' – when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you need not be afraid of him. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22)
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits." (Matthew 7:15-20)

Pax,

Thomistic

joanne

Have you considered that whether the messages at Garabandal are true or false, they are, if heard, subject to the approval of the Church, because obedience to the Church was a primary message? In which case, how can the faithful lose? They need only do what they already know to do.
If there are inconsistencies here, and it seems that there are, they are nothing compared to the stuff of "the Bayside Seer" whose "locutions" portray the Blessed Mother as a hysteric. The only real danger I see in the Garabandal prophecies is that doubt could fall (as it has from other unstable sources) from them regarding the validity of Pope Benedict's character and authority. THAT would be something worth defending and worth discrediting (even if it disturbs believers) Garabandal.

carlos

Certainly, leaving aside the details of the prophecies, the general direction of the teachings these children received is pious and proper.

I disagree that "the details of the prophecies" can be left aside. The truth or falsity of the visionaries' account stands or falls on the veracity of the locutions in their totality. Already three major prophecies have been proven erroneous because of factual impossibility. One cannot divorce the "message" of fidelity to the Church from the factual errors found in the locutions and then argue that the messages are sound despite the factual errors. To do so amounts to divorcing faith and reason, the very act the Pope John Paul II advised against in Fides et Ratio.

LCB

Normally I am a lurker, but this requires commenting. Garabandal seems really, really, insanely, straightforward to me. Obviously an incredibly elaborate hoax, or the work of evil forces.

Aversion to holy objects, false prophecy, encouragement to sin, leading people against the Church, seers renouncing all claims, I could go on ad nauseam.

At least Medjogore has some strong legs to stand on, this is nothing more than a straw house. A few half-hearted defense efforts have been attempted, but Thomistic pretty much demolished them.

In all charity, I suspect some of the defenders have not read all of the original post. I would be amazed if someone could write any sort of defense for this incident.

As for those saying "Satan wouldn't allow " you clearly underestimate how much the evil one wishes to corrupt souls.

LCB

Sometimes I hear folks talking about if the "Real third secret" was revealed at Fatima. Considered this for the "real third secret": The evil one will do a false apparition in neighboring Spain starting in 1961.

joanne

If it makes you feel any better, LCB, I don't know one person who has ever mentioned the apparitions or prophecies of Garabandal. So if it is a hoax, it didn't gain much ground. What I read here is the most I've ever read on the subject.

A Simple Sinner

"Sometimes I hear folks talking about if the "Real third secret" was revealed at Fatima. Consider this for the "real third secret": "The evil one will do a false apparition in neighboring Spain starting in 1961."

* Attend Mass in piety and earnestness.

* Pray your Rosary.

* Prepare thoroughly for confession and seek repair to God's friendship in the confessional frequently.

* Support those that do good in the name of Christ and do so yourself.

* Avoid all evil.

Those that can do these things please Our Mother far more than those on an apparition quest.

Nestor Busso

It wasn't condemned.
Please, read this explanation:
http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/garabandal.htm

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