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Wednesday, February 06, 2008

Comments

joanne

It is worded truthfully, and with love. I'm happy.

Jimbo

Abe Foxman is such a joke, as is the JDL. And of course the media have to go and ask the person they are sure will give them the conflict story they want. He's the Jewish Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson. Why is conflict the element in just about every single story?

And now we get clear evidence that Abe and his "organization" (an organization comprising 23 people) didn't have a problem with the first prayer but any prayer at all.

Are any Christians offended that Muslims want us to become Muslims, Evangelicals pray for us to leave our Catholicism, and Lutherans pray for us to become Lutherans. Do we care at all? And if Judaism is the True Faith, shouldn't they be praying for us to become Jews? I would hope so.

Perhaps this prayer is less ostracizing, which is probably a good thing; but I have a feeling any prayer would be construed as offensive by the pedalers of victimhood.

Roni

You people are so funny......religion is man-made........it's all a myth, a joke, a fairytale......wake up, it's not 16th century anymore......use your reason (if you have any that is)

That aside, what difference will this change make? As a secular Jew, do you think I give a $%*k what his "holiness" urged his followers to recite?

carlos

Roni, of course we still have reason that's why we believe in God. Ask yourself these questions:

1. If religions are all man-made, why is it that every civilization on earth has always had some sort of religion? The Even communist and fascist atheists had a religion of sorts; they deified the State.

2. Assuming you believe in Newtonian physics, then objects at rest remain at rest unless acted upon by an outside force, right? Well, the planets all are moving around the sun, and the planets are all rotating on their axes. There had to be an outside force that created such movement, right? In keeping with Newtonian laws, we believe that force has a name: God.

3. You say that you don't believe in religion yet you use profanity in your post. If you don't really care at all what is said, why are you so upset by it?

Dan Hunter

Roni.
"Thou doth protest to much"
Hmmm...

Roni

Carlos,

1-2 There is no point in arguing whether God exists or not - I can't prove that he doesn't exist and you can't prove that he does in fact exist. It's a futile argument, save your energy.

3. Here is what I am upset at: My problem is not with your set of beliefs. If you believe that God created the Earth in 7 days, that God and Mary got together and created Jesus and all that jazz......that's your personal choice and you have a right to believe in whatever you wish to believe. I can argue with you, even mock you, but I will never approve of any action that will take that right from you as I firmly believe in the freedom of thought. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said about organized religion - and that new "prayer" proves it. Catholic church believes that its set of beliefs is the only "correct" one and, thus, it has a right (or even an obligation?) to state that the misguided, blind Jews can only be "saved" (what?) if they adopt Catholic beliefs. See the difference fellows? I don't try to impose my beliefs on others while organized religion does precisely that through indoctrination, threats and, in the past, force. If that prayer affected only members of the Catholic church, nobody would object to it - you can recite whatever you want. However, prayers like this contribute greatly to the hatred of Jews. A lot of people suffered and continue to suffer from actions of people that believed that Jews are "blind" and "killed Jesus".............

Atlanta Catholic

Roni,

Please read the Miraculous Conversion of Alphonse Ratisbonne. You sound just like Alphonse. Let us all say a prayer for Roni. It is Roni's type of stubbornness and perseverance that have blessed us with some of the finest Catholic saints. May God bless and enlighten you! You are greatly loved!

Jimbo

It just goes to show, Roni, that we Catholics have way more in common with religious Jews than secular ones.

Your logic and knowledge are twisted and sorely lacking. I don't say this to alienate or upset you; it is just a fact. Of course you can pop off and spout your woeful lack of understanding of Catholic theology; no one here will mind, although it does get a bit tiring.

Catholics don't believe we have a monopoly of all religious truth...and that you have to adhere to catholic dogma to be "saved." But we believe that being "saved" is possible, as well as being "lost". I can understand why you and so many want that to be a fantasy. We pray for those who are "saved" to remain so, while we pray for those not so to become so. We pray for the physically well to remain so, while we pray for the sick to become well.

If we prayed to the moon, I doubt you'd care or comment or ever come to this site. That you're here says something. I would like to know what that something is or was.

There is a way to show God exists, and show that the Catholic Church is the One organization created by God to help us people out on our journey to God. The proof is reasonable and logical, although it will not infallibly convince you. The evidence was pretty overwhelming about OJ, but 12 people still unanimously decided it wasn't enough.

I do wish you well, and hope you stoke the interest in religion that brought you here. You do care, even if your intentions are muddled up with a desire to make a mockery of others. I'm speaking as one who's been there...although you may not in fact be there.

Heck, if all religions are crap, you can put your full attention to the meaningful pursuits of hedonism, sports, and/or whatever else intrigues/interests you so much. That's a great way to go...if not a bit empty. I won't mock you, however, in your pursuits, as you've done here to us.

Maybe you're wrong.

Thomistic

Roni,

If you believe something to be true, why would you believe something else that contradicts it is also true or equally true?

You seem to believe that it's always wrong to want other people to believe what you believe to be true or try to persuade them of the truth you believe, or even pray that they'll believe it.

Yet you are attempting to persuade others to agree with your world view.

I'm not criticizing you for that. I just want you to see the inherent contradictions in your logic – which is ironic, since your initial objections to religious belief seemed to imply that you value logic and think religious beliefs are illogical and/or unreasonable.

If you believe it's wrong to steal, but a thief disagrees with you, are you content to say you are both right, or willing to suggest you might be wrong and the thief correct?

It seems to me that all that would indicate is that you aren't very certain of your beliefs.

Yet you seem very certain of the truth of the various beliefs you have asserted here, and I'm not criticizing your certainty (though I believe you're wrong). My point is that if you really believe the things you say you believe, especially that it's wrong to try to get others to believe as you do and/or wrong to hope others will believe what you believe, then why would you ever try to convince anyone else that they were wrong in their beliefs?

If you believe there is no absolute, objective truth, then you contradict yourself, because that's an internally contradictory statement.

The statement that we can never know anything with certainty is also internally contradictory.

I guess my real point is that if you really reflect on things, you'll realize that you don't apply the same measure, the same rules, that you use to reject our beliefs in a consistent, logical way throughout your day to day life. On reflection, you will realize you apply your skepticism selectively and largely because of things you have accepted as true after hearing them from others – in a way, based on a kind of faith (or trust) in some authority.

Catholics believe their religion is the truth. Why, then, would they believe Islam or
Zoroastrianism (or any other belief or non-belief you can think to name) is equally true or worthy of equal respect?

Why would Catholics not want to share the truth with others?

You share truth with others when you articulate mathematical principles or tell people something is wrong, unethical, or unjust.

Would it be better for you to let someone think 2+2 =3?

How about if that someone was your banker or your accountant?

Catholics live in the same world you do, and your choices have an impact on them and the world. They have every right to articulate the reasons for their beliefs and hope you'll agree, just as you do (as you've done here).

Finally, I'd like to encourage you to read the following:

Religious Indifferentism

Truth

Summa Theologica: The Existence Of God

Twenty Arguments For The Existence Of God

The Divinity Of Christ

Evidence for the Resurrection of Christ

Mere Christianity

Pax,

Thomistic

Roni

What brought me to this site? Sorry to disappoint – it was not because I was uncertain of my beliefs, as some of you suggested here. I was reading an Israeli newspaper online and saw an article on the new prayer. I read the comments there and wanted to know what “the other side” thinks about it. That’s how I found this blog.

O.K. Catholicism states that I am lost, misguided, aimless, etc. The esteemed Catholics of this blog, on the other hand, are the ones that discovered the truth in its most pure form, that are enlightened, that lead meaningful, God-fearing lives, etc. I think you are wrong. You think I am wrong. Someone here is in for a big disappointment at the end of his/hers life. In the meantime, why not live your lives according to your beliefs without pointing out how wrong (in your opinion – an opinion that, at best, is arguable) others are? Did 12 million Jews ask your opinion about anything, let alone about their religious needs?
You may ask how arguing with you here is different from what Catholic Church is calling for in its conversion prayer. Simple – while I argue with your points, there is no institutionalized call on behalf of atheists worldwide to abandon your Catholic beliefs and switch to “the only right path of science and reason”. Yet you guys insist to show me and people like me “the light”! I don’t want to be “saved” (not using your definition of “saved” anyway). If I did, I would’ve become a Catholic on my own, without the nagging prayer calling for my conversion. Why can’t organized religion just let go – if someone is interested in Catholicism, Shia Islam, Russian Orthodox Church, etc. and wants to find out more about it or to embrace it – these people will seek you themselves! Those that won’t will not be “saved” – oh well, if Catholicism is right, that will be our loss, not yours. We appreciate Catholicism’s concern for our spiritual well being but unsolicited attempts to sway us onto the right path are, frankly, arrogant, offensive and too often lead to bloodshed.

Patrycke

In the meantime, why not live your lives according to your beliefs without pointing out how wrong (in your opinion – an opinion that, at best, is arguable) others are?

Roni, you aren't too bright. You visit a Catholic blog to tell Catholics how wrong they are for telling others how wrong they are. That makes a lot of sense.

By the way, the prayer in question takes place at Mass. I can't say that I've seen a lot of Jews hanging around at Mass. If you feel you are being nagged by it, then you will just have to deal with it, pal. It looks like the prayer is there to stay.

Jeffrey

Roni,
Don't buy everything the media and Abe Foxman say about Catholics.
The Catholic Church saved more Jews from the Holocaust than any other organization or country.
There are many of Pius XII's contemporaries that spoke in high praise of him. Foxman himself was baptized in order to be saved from the Nazis as a baby.
Horrible people have been responsible for violence to every race known to man at one time or another. Many Catholics died in concentration camps, include St Maximillian Kolbe. It was not due to any dogma that people have killed, although some may have tried to use religion to justify evil acts.
Atheistic nations have killed more people, by far, than Christian ones. The Soviet Union, China (under Mao), and many other communist regimes have killed at least 100 million in the 20th century alone.

carlos

1-2 There is no point in arguing whether God exists or not - I can't prove that he doesn't exist and you can't prove that he does in fact exist. It's a futile argument, save your energy.

Roni, I was trying to provide you with reasoned, logical proof of the existence of God. If you simply don't believe that ancient civilizations had organized religion and don't believe that Newtonian physics explain the laws of nature, you could have simply stated as much. Stating that "there is no point" in debating the existence of God is no way to have a reasoned discussion.

David1

Roni,
I spent most of my life as an agnostic. At some point, I observed many clearly supernatural events. I could not ignore these. As I investigated, a truth opened up which spoke to God's plan and purpose for our life on earth. Part of this truth is the role for the Church(es). Churches are not organizations of perfect human beings. They are instead a group on pilgrimage together to seek, find and participate in the larger truth.

I propose to you to seek that truth and not to let the offensive behavior of some church members deter you. It’s hard work, I know because it took me a year of skeptical research and meditation. However, I can promise you there is a logical and beautiful answer that resides on this trail.

joanne

"Evangelicals pray for us to leave our Catholicism".
Yes. I am offended. Hurt, even. I would not pray that a Christian LEAVE his/her church, although I would pray that God bring him (and his congregation) home as soon as possible. Just as I would pray for an anorexic to accept food, or for the return of a separated son.
Although the situations may be relatively similar, it is not the same for a Catholic to pray for the reconciliation of the Body of Christ and a separated Christian to pray that a Catholic abandon his faith and betray the Church.

Constantine

Why would the Jews need to be prayed for if "Jesus is the Savior of all mankind."?

If He forgot about the Jews, then, well, He didn't save all mankind, did He?

Patrycke

Constantine,

All mankind was redeemed by Christ. But, salvation is not automatic.

Patrycke

Why should it bother us if other people pray that we join their religion? As long as they don't get in my face, or annoy me, it doesn't bother me.

Twenty years ago I did a little family tree research for my aunt. I had heard that Mormons are really into genealogy, so I visited the genealogical library at the local Mormon temple. While researching my family, I found records indicating that my Catholic grandparents had been posthumously Christened as Mormons.

Apparently, Mormons collect records of people long dead, and they Christen them as Mormons (or some such thing). At first, I was taken aback. But, then I thought, "what do I care?" I don't believe in it, so it makes no difference to me. My grandparents died Catholics.

People can pray for whatever they want in private or during their church services. It's just too bad they aren't all Catholics. :o)

Joseph-USA

Pope Benedict XVI did the "great" work of reinstating the traditional Latin Mass (to vacuum up money bequests from estates of "the Greatest Generation" versus letting those bucks go to the "Save the Gay Whales Fund").

Now he negotiates changes to the traditional Latin Mass with another phony (Abe Foxman) "religious leader."

Wasn't the entire post Vatican II period just one big long series of negotiations and changes to the traditional Latin Mass, up to the point of utterly ridiculous antics such as "the Mass as a dance" celebrated by a homosexual priest wearing a black leotard (somewhere in Orange County, CA a couple years ago)?

Benedict XVI is entirely responsible for the destructive catastrophe of everything which happened during and subsequent to Vatican II and the ruins are all around him. The entire mess coincides with every step and stage of his life and actions and "scholarship" as a priest.

Jimbo

Well, Roni, if it weren't for the media trying to dig up some inter-cultural conflict to "report" on, you'd probably never have found out about the prayer in the first place. We're not the ones that brought it to you and jammed it in your face.

You'll never know what we pray for or do during Mass, so don't worry about it. Hmm, when was the last time I wondered about Mormon prayers during their service? Never. You ascribe more reality to our prayers than is consistent with your stated beliefs. Whatever.

Honestly, why do you care what we pray for, what we do, as long as it doesn't affect you?

Since religion is all nonsense, can't you just leave us to our silly superstitions and magical beliefs and practices? We promise never to erect a totem pole in your front yard or give you the ole evil eye on your way to the gym. We promise we'll never force you to become Catholic...but you could at least thank us for making a pretty tolerant, good country.

Joe,

How did you get so flippin' whacked out? I used to address you like you were a normal, rational person; I won't make that mistake anymore after what you just wrote.

Constantine

Patrycke,

What does it mean that all mankind was redeemed by Christ, but its not automatic?
If its not automatic, what did He do?

Thanks,

Patrycke

Constantine,

We have have had this discussion before. From time to time, you show up on this blog and post comments which run contrary to Catholic theology. When a debate ensues, you post comments containing Scripture quotes taken completely out of context or you disappear for awhile. I have a hard time believing you are for real. I wonder if you just get a kick out of starting a commotion.

If you are for real, I wonder where you get your theology. Sometimes you seem like a Jehovah Witness and sometimes you seem like a confused Fundamentalist. Do you make this stuff up as you go along? Did you have Gene Scott playing on the on the TV while reading Watchtower Magazine?

Warren Anderson

Catholics must pray for others to see the Light. I am so grateful that God rescued me from darkness. Were it not for the charity of faithful Catholics, I would be lost. Catholics should not feel guilty for one moment for living the Gospel and being faithful to the command of the Lord by preaching the Good News. If we take the Faith seriously, how can we ignore our responsibility to reach out to others by speaking the truth in a loving way, for the sake of their eternal souls?

Constantine

Patrycke,

Well thank you for your kind comments. If we have had this discussion before
forgive me, I don't recall. At any rate, I appreciate your patience. Since I've only asked you two questions, and haven't made any statements, I don't know what you think I'm making up.

But you can tell me if you wish.

Will you be answering my question?

All the best to you.

Patrycke

Constantine,

I copied the following from the web. It was written by a Catholic priest and explains the difference between redemption and salvation.

Redemption vs. Salvation
Very simply, by the shedding of His Blood on the cross, Christ redeemed all men. We must explain two very important concepts. There is a great difference between redemption and salvation. Redemption means the paying of the price. Let us take a simple example. If ten men are in jail because they could not pay a hundred dollars fine, they remain there to the end of the sentence or have someone pay the fine. Let us say a redeemer gives the court a thousand dollars for the ten men. All have been redeemed. However, just two leave the jail, and other eight continue their jail sentence. What do we have? We have ten men redeemed (the price for them was paid). However, only two were saved. They had the gumption to get up and leave the jail when the cage was opened.

In order to be "saved" by the Grace of God, we must choose to accept God's saving grace.

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