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Tuesday, November 17, 2009

Comments

BBC

The crucifix is an execution device which hung the Saviour of the world.

We as believers are to take up our crosses daily; in that, the world will see Christ through us. Fighting to keep objects of faith in secular places is pointless. Keep yourselves in secular places and let Christ's light shine. People come to know Christ through the Gospel message, which we live and preach.

If we hold too strongly to objects, do these objects have a hold of us? This would be idolatry thinking that these objects have power. The power of the cross is the love of God, crushing His own Son, for the people He loves.

Concrete Symbol

BBC,

People like you would like to reduce Christianity to nothing more than daydreams.

BBC

Removing swearing of oaths in court proceedings is also okay. "Let your yes be yes, and your no be no."

In regards to Italian history, before Constantine, Italian history was paganism. The Church grew greatly during the time of persecution, when Rome was governed by people such as Domentian, and Nero etc. The Christians of this day relied upon God, and were true believers, not cultural believers.

The world, hated Christ first, and because it hates Him, it will hate us also. God will always keep a remnant for Himself of "those who have not bowed the knee to Baal."

Rely on Christ, not on political power. "Remain in Him, and He will remain in you." Cultural belief is not true belief, "for no one comes to the Son unless the Father draws him."

True Brothers in Christ love each other, and their neighbours. They do not lord their beliefs onto others, but lead them to the truth, through love. It is "God's kindness that leads us to repentance." He does not draw us in by condemning us. He loves us, which causes us to love.

Concrete Symbol

BBC,

It is obvious that you are a Protestant who never had any use for a crucifix in the first place.

Be honest, you disdain Catholic/Orthodox Christian culture in particular.

I am sure you have your own little Christian culture and would object if these anti-Christain secularists tried to change it (Remember, culture is the way people do things).

And, how dare you accuse the defenders of the schoolroom crucifix of being nothing more than cultural believers. Who are you to make such a judgment? Can you see into their hearts like God?

I think you need to take your own advice. "They do not lord their beliefs onto others..."

BBC

Concrete, perhaps you should read my comment again. It appears you are reading into the comment, instead of reading the comment. Maybe my punctuation was not accurate. It would appear that you have taken offense to something i said. Where have i offended you?

Simonian

BBC your particular sentiments are what is killing off all native cultures of Europe. English culture is already dead, gone. And good ridance. But do not DARE to impose your wayward and unscrupulous lack of morals and faith on the rest of us. You hide behind your own abridged version of "Christianity" and would impose that same bastardisation on the rest of Europe (and the world). Well, it is not going to happen. Jesus, Our Lord and Savior dying on the cross is HISTORY. Get that in your head. It HAPPENED. And it changed the world and humanity forever. People who decide to follow another religion or none at all can look at the cross as a moment in history, and nothing more. But for the rest of us, it is a reminder of the best and worst of humanity, and what we as Chrisitian must aspire to.

Simonian

P.S. God bless the Orthodox. Maybe NOW (600 years later) they will finally see that God does NOT want His church to be divided, and that together we can accomplish much good in the world. These scurulous Fins may bring about some good yet.

BBC

Simonian, it only changes man, if man believes. If a man believes, he trust God. God is in control because He is sovereign. Christians need to worry about their neighbours, and need to examine their hearts. Not worry about symbols. The temple was a symbol for the Jews of God and His presence. The temple was destroyed, the Jews were left with nothing. We worship God in Spirit and in truth, not in symbol because that would be idolatry.

Simonian

BBC no one is buying your heretical rants. Symbols exist for a reason; they carry meaning. We do not worship the symbol of the cross, but we as Christians respect it and indeed are called to "pick up and carry it" in the bible. You do remember the bible, don't you? So, don't tell me what to do or what to worry about. Your heretical days are numbered. That's a fact.

James Rich

I guess this once again proves my point from some months ago about Italian efforts to "provide" religious training to students, Simonian. You remember your argument: it's a great thing that Italy allows priests to come into school and teach its students...you know, a few posts before the lady from Italy completely shot your argument down with those stubborn things called facts. Yeah, I see its motives: What the state giveth, it can taketh away. Sounds eerily similar to what I said.

Frankly, whether or not the crucifix is up or down is irrelevant. It has already been "taken down" from the hearts and minds of many/most Italians, and should probably be removed in recognition of this fact. I'll take a classroom of students who bow to that crucifix in their homes before going to school, than a crucifix in a classroom no one cares about. Removing the crucifix apparently only confirms this reality. Jesus spoke a bit about not simply having the exterior appearances of religious faith while ignoring the interior demands of that faith. This, to me, sounds like one of those times. It's just another reason Catholic schools are so important. Catholics are not entitled to have their faith appreciated or respected or accorded anything by the secular, antagonistic state. When are we going to figure that out?

BoxxaRoxx

That first post was true, to a point; however, check-out Martin Luther on thy browser and you'll see, my friend, HE dissented ON the teachings of Catholicism which had been around a looooooooong time before you were yet born. 33 AD in fact. So, please, give it a rest. If you respect God and love thy neighbor, the TWO things Jesus sed to do to enter Heaven, then, you're in. No dissent, k?

Simonian

James, you are what one would correctly call an "ignorant chump". The "lady from Italy" is not a lady, but a man (who I am in contact with). And I lived in Italy just as long as he has and went throught the same school system. You really don't know anything about this (or any other?) subject having to do with Europe (or Catholicism?).

Alex Benziger.G

Sir,
In india,a Hindu driver of a Muslim's car, put up a hindu sign or Hindu God in the car is quite normal.In all the Government buildings or private working place/buildings can see the Hindu God picture or other signs. Nobody objects it. This is our culture. This is our tradition. This is our religious tolerence.
But the verdict of the Europian court on the Cross is biased.Too much liberalism or freedom will leads to spoil the Society.

Concrete Symbol

Wayne wrote:

BBC is correct. Catholics really put a lot of stock into those statues.

Yeah, so what if we do? What's it to you? Do you come here to criticize Catholic beliefs and customs because it makes you feel more secure about your heretical little sect?

Wayne wrote:

So, if the idol doesnt look like mary, who are you bowing in front of? Take a wild guess.

That last comment just demonstrates that you are superstitious and ignorant. Do you believe Satan is hiding inside the statue?

In cultural and psychological terms, those statues of the Blessed Virgin represent one of the most important female archetypes (ideal person) in the history of mankind. And, even though we don't know what she looked like, we know the important part -- WHO SHE IS. And, no, we don't worship them.

Go back to your bibliolatry.

Joprotus

I respect the picture of my wife and sometimes kiss on it because I love her. The picture reminds me of her all the time...

I respect the statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary and sometimes kiss on it because I love our Mother through Jesus Christ. The statue reminds me of her all the time...

We Catholics love our Mother Mary but we don't worship the statue.

BBC

Simonian,

The Spirit gives life, who is he that condemns. Your words, are not words of love to edify your neighbour. Therefore, you are not speaking by the Spirit.

BBC

Alex Benziger writes,
"But the verdict of the European court on the Cross is biased.Too much liberalism or freedom will leads to spoil the Society".

Alex, do you speak of the "social Gospel"? The Gospel of Christ is not to make society better, but to bring people into the Kingdom of God. Society becoming better as a result of people living in the Kingdom is a natural result.

"Too much freedom spoils society" God did not create robots; therefore, "no one is righteous not even one" (Romans 3:9-19). We all have freedom to choose, those of us who know and choose wrong are even more guilty then those who do not know. Forcing society to conform to religion, does not save people. It does not save people, because these people think they are good, better then Hitler, or Saddam Hussein etc. God does not compare us to others, and so we should not. We are compared to God, and we all fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23).

Therefore, no one is righteous, our good deeds are filthy rags in the eyes of the Lord (Isaiah 64:6), because He is so holy. Therefore, it is only possible to be made right with God through Jesus Christ, and unless society hears the true Gospel, it will never be made right with God, and will never be good.
When we know God we are changed on the inside, we are new creations dead to sin alive in Christ (Romans 6). We know how to love because God lives in us (1 John 4:7-21). This will make a good society.

Unfortunately, "many are called, but few are chosen". And there will always be strife for this reason, we live in a fallen world.

Simonian

BBC you don't know what you are talking about. I condemn your words just as Sts Paul, Peter, James et al condemned heresy from its very begining. You are hardly speaking words of the spirit, but words spawned by the father of all lies.

James

The UN Climate Change Congress in Copenhagen has banned all Christmas tree displays. Christmas trees! Welcome to the new world, where all cultures are equally esteemed and respected...except Christianity and religious ones.

Alex Benziger.G

Dear Mr.BBC,
You said something, India is a Secular country but in the public building or offices or schools put up the God's images or pictures is quite common. Nobody bothers.
But the Europian Court is biased or motivated.
Our Lord said, "A sound tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor a rotten tree bear good fruit. Any tree that does not produce good fruit is cut down and thrown on fire. I repeat you will be able to tell them by their fruits." (Mat.7:20).

Jon

Hey! Imagine my surprise when I saw that the very crucifix hanging in my hometown Catholic church--the Church of the Most Holy Trinity in Augusta, GA--was used for your photo! This is a gorgeous lifesize crucifix given by the Irish Catholics who built Holy Trinity* and, I am pleased to say, it's toes are actually discolored (not evident from this photo) from the many kisses and acts of reverence that countless faithful have rendered it over the years, mine own included. Anywho--Happy Epiphany!

*Virtual Tour seen here: http://www.themostholytrinity.org/3dtour/frt.html

Aaron

In a country where the crucifix is not only present in schools, private and government offices, courtrooms, but also in bedrooms, living rooms, cafeterias, libraries, lobbies, car dashboards, motorcycles, jeepneys, almost everywhere it would seems funny for anyone to consider the alternative. I guess once you become too confident on your prosperity and you lack the humility to look back in thanks you forget your spirituality and religiousity - even Einstein believed in an all powerful being, in our human history that was Christ.

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